Daughter became extreme after seminary

amother

↑ Yolk

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 3:15 pm

I re-read your post OP and it’s clear this isn’t just a temporary thing. According to what you said, dd wasn’t happy with the chilled oot derech she grew up in and had said that all along, and she pushed hard to go to this kind of seminary. Sounds like it was a very inspiring year for her bH. I think you should be proud of having a daughter who aspires to grow, even though it’s painful to feel in some way judged as “less than”. I would do everything you can to maintain the warm strong relationship you have with her, and support her and help her find her way in a new culture.

I know so many people who were once idealistic flipouts, and stayed that way and are raising beautiful families bH. You should have only nachas from her and your boys!

behappy2 ↓

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 3:43 pm

I would try to see if I can find someone you both respect. If not I would hold my tongue on any dogma (if I could. It must be hard) and just bond with her. It's really your best ammunition. See if you can find someone to guide you and support you. It must be very hard. Try to be an example of joy and peace with your own yiddishkeit.

amother

↑ Impatiens

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 3:45 pm

Who is her rav?

I have seen situations where the mentors are very makpid on many things, especially when they are mechanchos for a whole school and want to give a consistent message. But when you actually ask shailos to a rav, you get very different answers. Often the mentor herself will give you different guidance if you ask her specific, detailed, honest questions- but many girls do not do that.

↑ behappy2 ↓

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 4:18 pm

amother Yolk wrote:

Actually, as a parent it pains you FOR THE CHILD to not be balanced. Not necessarily for yourself.

As a parent it has always been one of my top priorities to raise balanced children. I have conversations with my kids about what balance looks like. From when they are very young. I don't care if my kids are frummer than me as long as it is balanced and healthy and they are happy. I do lots of things to encourage this balance.

amother

Azure

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 4:19 pm

Women being very makpid to daven 3 times a day is not a chassidish thing, it's more of a very yeshivish woman type of thing.
Shaving hair is an extreme chassidish minhag - Satmer, Viznitz, maybe Skvere.
Big black clothing would be extreme chassidish and extreme yeshivish.
Kolel life, is also more of a yeshivish thing.
She didn't pick a derech, it seems she just feels that being the most extreme in every aspect of yiddishkeit is the best. She seems misguided, she doesn't really understand the true meaning of yiddishkeit.

amother

Cyclamen

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 4:27 pm

Just keep loving her, don't rush to judgment before an entire year post sem. As long as you don't suspect ocd, let her adjust as she will. Until you start shidduchim you have time. Just keep being her mom. And try to keep back so she doesn't hang on tighter because your opinion, so she can find her own authentic path.

It must be really difficult for you and that is totally normal.

amother

Linen

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 4:34 pm

amother Yolk wrote:

And I know people who were idealistic flipouts until they burnt out. Of course, by then they were married, with many kids. They, their spouses, and their kids suffered as a result.
This isn't a regular "inspiring to grow".

amother

Wine ↓

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 5:39 pm

As a yeshivish graduate of a heimishe school and went to Hadar for seminary, this sounds pretty extreme, close to OCD

Why is she cutting her hair shorter than shoulder length? Shoulder length is standard, ideal tznius length.

Why is she wearing all black? (Brown is in Wink

Yes, I know of girls who daven maariv. I went to sleep away camp 20+ years ago and the daughters of one of the Lakewood Rosh Yeshivas Shlita were in my bunk, and they davened maariv. But that isn’t typical. And definitely not to wake up at 4 AM when sick.

Why is she thinking of shaving her head?? Was her seminary chassidish? (Where did she get that from?)

Why listen to men darshan in Yiddish if you don’t know Yiddish? That’s bizarre. There are so many speakers on Torah Anytime she can listen to in English.

I am really curious as to what seminary she went to.
OP, maybe if you tell us, we can confirm for you that this isn’t the norm for its grads. For your daughters privacy, you can give us a list of 3-5 seminaries that she considered, including the one she went to.

amother

Moccasin

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 5:55 pm

amother Azure wrote:

This! It doesn't sound like she chose a path, she is choosing the extreme from all paths. This is a red flag that it's not coming from a healthy place, nor the normal self discovery.

Sounds more like OCD, or a mental concern than someone gravitating towards a different path in life. Or if its not, it speaks to a very confused individual. I think OP should first try to narrow down the root cause and then take it from there.

I wouldn't be too worried about dating just yet. I can't imagine the average man wanting to marry a wife who is collecting all the extreme actions from multiple directions.

amother

Hawthorn

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 6:29 pm

Dont have much advice cause without really knowing your daughter its hard to say.
But I just want to comment on this:

Quote:

I have only 1 daughter, and I feel like I've lost her.

Just imagine if she would've ch"v gone the other extreme. I know some people dont want to hear such comments, but I had a similar situation, and what really helped was constantly telling myself "B"h 100x she went this way and not the other way."

amother

Poinsettia

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 7:05 pm

The Alter of Novardok once had a mother come to him saying that his son went to a different Yeshivah (not the Alter's) and became like this.
The Alter said "do not worry. It is human nature to become more lax over time. It's better that he become more lax on a higher level than on a lower level"

This can be applied here as well.

Yes, this is extreme, but its human nature to become lax after a lengthy period of time. It's better that she become lax on a higher level- where she's only dropping chumros and not actual halachos than to become lax from a lower level and drop real important things.

amother

Amethyst

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 7:12 pm

I know a few people in real life who flipped out like your daughter did.

One was raised out-of-town just-plain-frum and today lives in Kiryas Yoel, where she is married to a Satmar guy and has a shaved head...and she also davens three times a day and learns the seforim of the Satmar Rebbe inside. She's a very extreme person and her derech doesn't fit quite perfectly even with the community where she ended up, but as far as I know she is happy and remains close with her family.

Another had a similar flipping out experience and particularly went stringent on tznius standards. She married (young) to a guy with similar hypersensitivities. A few year later, they were divorced and she is now gender-nonbinary and prefers they/them pronouns.

In addition to looking into OCD, which many posters have mentioned might be playing a role in your daughter's religious development, keep a close eye on the parts of her extremism that intersect with zexuality. Is her extremism in tznius coming from a place of discomfort with the gashmius expectations of adulthood, and trying to channel negative judgment of physical pleasure into a core religious value? If so, the issue might not be with religion but with her mindset toward zexuality altogether.

amother

Acacia

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 8:44 pm

Op, was your daughter ever abused?

amother

Stoneblue

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 8:46 pm

amother OP wrote:

I have one daughter (and a bunch of boys). She is a lovely, smart, good person. She's always had a drive to be more frum, more yeshivish than our family, and she has made it very clear that she doesn't appreciate our healthy, chilled, out-of-town frum community.
I was really not looking forward to sending her to seminary, but there really isn't any other choice for out-of-town girls. And she pushed for it so hard. We sent her to a top, very frum school, because that's where top, smart, frum girls go.
And if I was worried beforehand... all that worry is justified. She came home wanting to have nothing to do with our family, just dreaming at every second of seminary and wanting to go back to Eretz Yisrael. She had long had a certain career plan, and now changed to something very practical and quick, which is not a problem at all, except that she had never expressed any interest in this area. She now keeps chalav yisrael, tosfos shabbos, wears only dark and dowdy clothes. Again, none of these things are problematic at all, it's just the package that's really worrisome. It's been 6 months now, and although she has bH become closer to our family, smaller and more worrisome things keep popping up. She keeps wanting to cut her hair shorter and shorter, even though it's already so refined, shoulder-length. She listens to shiurim all day - but not mainstream shiurim for frum women, but men's shiurim in yiddish (and we don't speak yiddish! though she has been actively trying to learn). She is obsessed with chassidish lifestyle and kids - which again is not intrinsically a problem, just that our family is very litvish. She has expressed that she would be ok shaving her head (again, only a problem since that is so far from our mesorah). She davens shacharis, mincha and maariv - again something beautiful for a single girl, except that we just found out that recently, when she was feeling unwell, she went to bed without davening maariv and therefore set her alarm clock to 4 am so that she could get in her maariv before morning! I do not think this is normal for a mainstream BY type girl. She learns in multiple chaburos with seminary friends.

We were planning on holding off shidduchim no matter what, so at least that's not a pressure yet. But it's very clear that she is not going to "come down" from her seminary la-la land. I'm concerned that she is not in a healthy place. While I'd love to have her speak with some rabbanim and rebbitzens in our community, I don't think it will help, since she sees them as "lower level" than the extreme rebbitzens she met in seminary and who she idolizes. She sees things as, and appreciates, very black and white.
My husband tried to have a conversation with her recently but I'm afraid it just strengthened her resolve to be more and "better" than our family and our community. I can't even imagine that any type of shidduch redt to her by anyone who knows us (and thinks they know her) will be "good enough" (ie frum, extreme enough) for her.

Do I just accept that she wants a life that is very, very different than ours? I am concerned that she is not in a healthy place, but at the same time, I'm sure the parents of baalei teshuva feel the same way. I'm afraid that if I fight for her to return to what we consider a "normal" and healthy frum place, that all I'll do is alienate her more. On the other hand, as a mother, I know that I need to make sure she is safe.

I have only 1 daughter, and I feel like I've lost her.

Yes it does sound extreme. I also only have one daughter so I relate to your sadness about feeling like you lost her- I'd feel the same way. I'm 40, but when I was in high school and seminary, it was the cool thing to "flip out" (we called it "frummed out" then)- but it happened much more often to guys that were party guys in high school and rebellious and straightened out in Israel. Girls usually dont go this extreme, IMO. I dont have advice, just hugs. I do think there's a good chance things will even out in the next year, even if she doesnt end up being like your family. I hope she drops the head shaving thing, even if she does end up marrying a chassidish guy! (Mind you, chassidim are very picky about family- they generally only say "yes" if the families are similar to their so it is quite unlikely your daughter will get a "yes" from a true chassid, even if shes desperate to marry one).

amother

Yellow

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 8:46 pm

amother Azure wrote:

I agree. In fact, most chassidim hold women aren't even allowed to daven mairev.

tichellady

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 9:53 pm

Based on what you are saying I’m concerned about her mental health. Mental health issues can be confused with religious preferences especially at this age

notshanarishona

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 9:59 pm

I agree with you that it doesn’t sound healthy and you should get her help.

Roots

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 10:33 pm

hey I dont have what to add
just wanted to say that you sound like agreat and caring mom
may Hashem give you the clarity to know how to deal with this
and may you hav elots of nachat from her

sequoia

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 10:35 pm

amother Yellow wrote:

I agree. In fact, most chassidim hold women aren't even allowed to daven mairev.

Why not?

amother

↑ Puce

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 10:50 pm

amother Moccasin wrote:

The people I know have found an equally striving/strong willed husband. the perfectionism is a common language for them.