Because of some men, I can’t live my life

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, May 30 2023, 11:43 am

Phoebe31 wrote:

I feel bad that you're so upset about this. The reason I felt the need to comment is that I feel like this is yiddishkeit being twisted... also, not only is this making women s@xualized, reducing men to s@x crazed individuals is extremely demeaning to them.

Telling me that my yiddishkeit is being twisted will most definitely not be considered chizzuk or help.
But I hear how this is disturbing to you. It’s disturbing to me too, even though I see it through a more sensitive lens than you.

amother

↑ Bone

Tue, May 30 2023, 11:44 am

amother OP wrote:

I haven’t gotten an psak yet. Only strong suggestions that it’s very problematic.

Then you may be jumping the gun assuming that you'll be told no.

And if they tell you it isn't assur, but they think you shouldn't do it, then this will be your choice what to do.

Either way I think you need to take ownership of what you choose and not blame it on "creepy men".

↑ Ima_Shelli ↓

Tue, May 30 2023, 11:45 am

amother OP wrote:

I haven’t gotten an psak yet. Only strong suggestions that it’s very problematic.

You sound like you asked to make your husband happy. You are a wonderful wife. I would not do this (have my husband’s concerns dictate my ruchnius; I don’t dictate his ruchnius either) but good for you.

Can you call back and say you don’t want a psak that you must/ be obligated follow but you will take the concerns to heart? And discuss the hashkafah more in-depth with the first Rav?

amother

↑ Indigo

Tue, May 30 2023, 11:47 am

amother OP wrote:

I hear what you’re saying. From my understanding, mainly because of what DH tells me, many men really are perverted. And I don’t mean it in a negative way. I mean it in the way that Hashem made men. Women can easily become s-xual to them. It’s the way they were created.

Again, this is my understanding. I’m not a man and can’t understand how or why it is so. But based on the way DH is and what he tells me, I feel that men get easily turned on by seeing women be passionate and expressive. It’s nasty to me, but what can I do. Maybe it’s just DH and so he’s extra sensitive when it comes to me being out there…

Sorry but this is simplistic and demeaning to both men and women.

amother

Powderblue ↓

Tue, May 30 2023, 11:51 am

Are you from a community where it is considered improper for a woman to speak IRL in front of a mixed crowd under any circumstances? If so, then I don't think this is really much of a stretch. The only chiddush is that the internet is considered a mixed crowd automatically, regardless of how material is targeted or labeled. But your rav is just paskening in accordance with the prevailing and already established view in your community that women speaking in front of men is inherently untznius, even if their dress and presentation is pareve as can be.

I am from a community where it is normal and acceptable for a woman to speak to a mixed audience, either in public on a professional secular topic like accounting or medicine, or on a Torah topic in shul.

I don't use Instagram, but as an attorney, I appear, speak, and argue in public. Some of the proceedings in which I appear are livecast via YouTube and the recordings permanently posted to YouTube. I know and expect that the videos will be viewed live by interested parties and stakeholders as the cases proceed, and then reviewed repeatedly by both men and women as other attorneys prepare their briefs after a hearing. They can be viewed by any member of the public anytime on YouTube. Although I can't imagine anyone watching this content for fun or tittilation, your rav and DH might disagree. Presumably, according to your rav, my appearances and presence on YouTube would also be assur. But to me it has never even been a shaila because it is entirely consistent with how our community functions and what our rav permits in shul and other places.

LovesHashem ↓

Tue, May 30 2023, 11:56 am

amother Powderblue wrote:

Yes. According to Rabbi Falks tzniyus book it's assur for a woman to be do anything out of the ordinary in public like speak, play an instrument, even paint as men will see her body moving and see her being passionate.

This isn't a Rav I follow but it is an opinion.

↑ LovesHashem

Tue, May 30 2023, 11:59 am

amother OP wrote:

This was partly my question to him. I am going to show up tznius and not doing anything provocative, so what’s the issue?!?!

He claims that men staring at a woman on their phone, watching them speak from the heart can make them dream of me at night.

And honestly, I believe him. I’m young and IMO pretty, so I personally wouldn’t feel comfortable with any man watching my videos.

My problem is, why can’t I post videos if I say men can’t watch. Then it’s their problem…
And that’s why he says it’s not that simple. It’s like I’m a michshol and making it even harder…
And I argued that if I’m not there they’ll find someone else to watch. So clearly they’re doing something they shouldn’t, even when I’m not the cause…

Also, he said that when a man sins because of a woman he saw, spiritually they are connected and in the next world they will be seen as the women’s boyfriends…

If you don’t understand and want a better explanation, then maybe ask someone you trust.

This is what I was told, and I believe it. But I’m still upset that it’s the reality.

Listen I agree with you that you do your part men do theirs.

The difference with publicly speaking or doing something IRL is it's not forever. No one can look up the footage, re-watch it, save it, send it etc.

So I personally (not because of tzniyus or hashkafa or Torah) wouldn't put myself on the internet because I don't want anyone seeing me, replaying me, etc. The thought of that disgusts and disturbs me. Even to the point I have family members who are very upset at me because I do not allow them to post pictures of me and my children on their social media platforms.

amother

Wine

Tue, May 30 2023, 12:22 pm

Just wanted to say op - I think you’re being really special. You didn’t have to ask but you did and are prepared to follow what the Rav said even if it’s hard for you - kudos to you!!!! I’m sure you won’t lose out and even if it seems like you do you will be rewarded in the next world.
That being said - if it helps can you think of it as not being the one who caused the men to stumble? Yes they would prob find someone else to watch but that is that woman’s problem. From what you describe I would feel pretty violated if my dh watched your videos and why would you want to be that person? Again if you get a psak that it’s ok then you can push it onto their very broad shoulders. But I wouldn’t want to have this responsibility on mine…

mandr

Tue, May 30 2023, 12:28 pm

OP kudos to you for asking. I hope you feel supported by the good comments on this thread and not misled by the silly ones. You asked and now you are following. This is what Yiddishkeit is all about. Think of it as something like not working on Shabbos. Even if I could have made so much more money by working one extra day of the week. And just remember, whatever money you were destined to make this year will happen, regardless of whether you do instagram stories or not.

Roots

Tue, May 30 2023, 12:43 pm

in disagreement with a previous poster, listening to a rav is the right thing to do.
thats what judaism is run by.
its not always easy thats for sure
but sometimes in the long run you see it was for the best.

a personal story- a few difficult months after [a close family friend] made aliyah, he found a perfect job with the perfect pay, in his field - a dream come true
before he closed the deal he went to r' chaim zt'l to ask for a bracha.
R chaim asked if the boss was shomer shabbos and our friend said no
R' chaim told him not to take the job
this man was so broken- there was no parnassa and in a new country and it really was a big nisayon!
a year later after BH he found a great job and was thriving he met someone from the previous job that he had applied to and turned down
turns out the person who got the job was nichshal with the very over friendly and untzniusdik secretery that worked there and his family life is not well since.
maybe this story is extreme, maybe not- but it is true- he told us first hand

so are we always going to know why we need to listen
and what comes out of it
obviously not
but in a world where we have daas torah to guide us- in the end of the day it can bring tremendous siyata dishmaya

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, May 30 2023, 12:59 pm

amother Wine wrote:

Thank you for this!
I appreciate everything you said Smile

amother

Vanilla ↓

Tue, May 30 2023, 1:38 pm

Chickensoupprof wrote:

You want me to say not to bash rabbanim because your rebbe isn't extreme at all but realistic. Well, sorry he lost me. The woman who use social media (mind you imamother is technically also social media) and are perfectly tzinius don't ask a shaila for everything they do in their lives.

The problem for OP here (it seems) that she cant show her face. So while imamother is technically a form of social media, you dont exacly show your face

amother

↑ Vanilla

Tue, May 30 2023, 1:42 pm

amother Antiquewhite wrote:

You wouldn’t walk out wheee there are men in a nightgown even if it covers knees and elbows. Part of the mitzvah of tznius is acknowledging that Hashem made a world where men are challenged and not to add to that challenge.

the difference is that going out in a nightgown is actually going out and as if saying "hi men, look at me". Men cant exactly avoid you
With instagram, men are CHOSING to follow you (not saying if its correct or not)

amother

↑ Amaranthus

Tue, May 30 2023, 1:51 pm

I’m trying to figure what you thought the Rav would say when you called?

No legit Chassidishe Rav is going to give their approval because of political reasons if anything.

The most you can do now is explain that you can make your account private and remove men who are following your stories.

There are many options to limit your account.

amother

Babypink

Tue, May 30 2023, 1:57 pm

amother Amaranthus wrote:

Where do you see that OP asked a Chassidishe Rav

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, May 30 2023, 1:57 pm

amother Amaranthus wrote:

I’m not chassidish.

Also, I was calling to hear a hashkafik perspective that I can align with. So far, it isn’t clear if it’s ok or not.