For all those jealous of the poor—peaceful discussion please

amother

↑ Brunette ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:47 pm

Trademark wrote:

Isn't health insurance a big expense?

Once Medicaid is cut off isn't paying for insurance a huge jump?

So are saying that there isn't much truth that it often doesn't pay to earn more?

Thanks for clarifying!

I'm not sure what she's talking about.

My husband's office offers insurance (that we have to pay). But they only offer 2 options. Expensive ($1000/month for a couple, $8000 yearly deductible and then they cover only 80%).
Or Expensiver ($1500/month for a couple, $7000 yearly deductible and then they cover 90%).

Because he technically can get insurance through the office, we can buy through the Marketplace but without any help.
So we can pay $400/month with a 12000 deductible or $600/month with a 10000 deductible.

And our kids are eligible for JerseyCare and we make only 100k a year.
Many many people are like us.
That their jobs offer insurance but it's not cheap.

amother

NeonPink ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:47 pm

You described middle class in your op. Only switch out medicaid for a health share and add medical bills to the never-ending expenses. And instead of worrying about rent, owe half the world money for your house and be terrified of going into foreclosure.

Here are some things the middle class suffers from in addition to those you mentioned:

-Push off going to the Dr as there is no way to pay copay. Supposed to go to a specialist for a checkup and keep hoping next month will be more feasible.

- Scrimp on basic food in the hopes that the budget will allow for boiler to be replaced. Get used to cold showers if a kid takes a long bath.

- pray for a miracle so you can afford a bar mitzvah and tefillin as no one is giving you handouts. It's all going to your 'poor siblings'. You have a house. Don't complain.

↑ Trademark ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:48 pm

amother Brunette wrote:

There are many people who feel pressured to go into massive debt for therapy.

And the pressure gets worse when referral organizations, schools, and here on Imamother, there's a prevailing attitude that insurance or clinic therapists are horrible and a therapist's quality is determined by how much they charge- encouraging everyone to go to the $500 therapists.

And like I said earlier, ask around how much credit card debt people have. You'd be surprised

$500/hour is a rip-off.

Do therapists not from our community charge close to this amount?

amother

Waterlily

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:49 pm

amother Slateblue wrote:

Thank you.
I wanted to post something similar after reading those responses.
I want to ask, do any of the suffering middle class ever go on vacation, have expensive jewelry, furntiture, etc..?
Our furniture is random second hand stuff. No vacations, tiny living space, one old noisy car, etc..

I'm middle class. No government help. No family help. Husband and I both work and provide for ourselves and our children. We live very very simply. I have no jewlery (except my plain wedding ring - that we bought ourselves). No vacation except 2 days over the past 3 years which was a roadtrip basically and I got a discount on the booking. We have very cheap furniture and yes Hand me down furniture. No one has expensive clothes. 1 car that's 10 years old but works. And a small living space. We pay full tuition . We Pay all our groceries and don't get shabbos meals covered by going out for meals. Have medical expenses. But baruch hashem we are not on programs. It seems the default for ppl now is - oh I'll just go on every program I can. But the ideal is to never be on them. The world is so backwards nowadays.

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:49 pm

amother OP wrote:

I am starting a spinoff because on the other thread people were saying how the poor are getting richer and middle class is suffering etc...

Now I decided to point out what things being poor makes us lose out on and you tell me if middles class is the same (or even worse) and it would be clear if its really worth it. I would appreciate if first the poor class would comment on this first so the list be more complete but obviously it's not necessary.

When being poor there is literally no way you can get a good therapist who deals with trauma and severe cases as they do not accept Medicaid. (I have seen many who accept the non Medicaid insurances) So if you went through something extreme in life you have to either take loans to pay for it or live with it (I don't know about middle class but let me know)

You can barely go on vacation , get a trip to eretz yisroel , cancan or most of those high class hotels that people post about or are in the magazines (unless you get a signup bonus credit card which anyone can get)

Quote:

I haven't seen a poor family with medicaid (who deserves medicaid and isnt making money under the table) buy a house or get a mortgage

your status in communities are usually lower when you are poor. You get less shidduchim for your child (see the other thread) aren't really recognized and chances are you will never be honored for anything in your life (even for the yeshiva dinner parents of the year award which is not important)

If there is something you really need badly and cant afford it there is no I will work more or work harder this week month etc.. becuase if you do you will lose all yor benefits.. you will always have to go to gemachs if that item or service is available or chv live without it

there is almost no room or potential to get promoted to a higher job / position/ wealth ...

you always rent and never know if you will get kicked out , will need to move , or if rent will go up

its extremely hard to save money for emergencies chv..

you are always in worry about how you will make your next simcha and will need to call this gemacch and that one and get references etc.. and work much harder and it doesn't always feel good

certain dental speialists are not covered forget about those dental costs (this is a message to be carefull about your teeth) such as endodontists, periodontists, crowns caps , and harder procedures..
to get a provider that accepts you have to go to a hospital and usually its the med students that see you who may not be that professional. To pay for a crown sometimes is over a thousand dollars (and there have been numerous threads here where people couldnt afford it)

Now this is the perspective of being poor , maybe if I get a chance I ll post the benefits as well. Those who complain about middle class you can post the challenges of being middle class and it can be an open (peacefull) discussion as honestly I have never been in your shoes so I don't know what perspective you are coming from. If anyone wants to add onto the list please feel free..

amother

↑ Ivory ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:53 pm

amother Brunette wrote:

So you can get Medicaid for your kids and buy insurance for the adults through marketplace. That is exactly my point. Tapering off. If you needed to pay for the whole family it would cost a lot more.

↑ Trademark ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:56 pm

amother Brunette wrote:

Thanks.

If it's not a bother, can you explain me the difference in coverage between insurance and JerseyCare?

Does insurance provide much better coverage for the money your paying?

I don't really know the details and I like to learn. Smile

amother

↑ Brunette ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:58 pm

amother Ivory wrote:

So you can get Medicaid for your kids and buy insurance for the adults through marketplace. That is exactly my point. Tapering off. If you needed to pay for the whole family it would cost a lot more.

Tapering off (imo) would mean family of 7, for the parents.
Up to 50k- free insurance
Up to 60k, 50/month, $5 copays
Up to 70k, 100/month, $10 copays
Etc.

Telling a family that makes 60k a year that they're only option is to pay insurance starting at $400/month with a $10000 deductible, is just a way to guarantee many many adults declining health insurance and therefore not doing any preventative care.

Or declining those hours and raise that takes them from $48,876 to $48,877 (real numbers last year in NJ)

amother

↑ Emerald ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 1:02 pm

Trademark wrote:

I live in new york but in my experience it does not. At all.

On fidelis/ Medicaid I had no copays for hospital case etc. on private having a baby bh is costing thousands in copay’s - same hospital/ dr.

My baby’s specialized formula was fully covered, easy pre approval . now we fought and it’s still not covered.

Some cities and areas may have less drs that take fidelis but not really in monsey/ Lakewood/ Brooklyn. More like Manhatten.

amother

↑ Brunette ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 1:03 pm

Trademark wrote:

JerseyCare is HMO Medicaid.
In Lakewood, most regular drs take it.

We're a family of 7. So those are the numbers I know.
Under around 48k, parents and children are on, no payments.
Over 48k, parents get kicked off, children stay on with a $1/$5 copay depending on the procedure.
By around 80k, you pay a monthly premium of around $30.
By around 95k, monthly premium of around $60.
The children get kicked off at approximately 115k.
No deductibles.

It's not perfect. And people who need some specialists struggle. OT, PT, Speech can be stressful.
But average cost is massive.

amother

Buttercup ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 1:03 pm

Great thread!

I will respond as someone who was poor, now moved into middle class but still struggling a lot financially.

Tuition--we used to qualify for daycare vouchers which the school accepted towards tuition. Now make too much.

Insurance--premiums for family are not too high (I work in healthcare) and my kids still qualify for CHIP. I still have deductibles and copays though.

Therapy--definitely lack of funds kept us from accessing therapy, but still having trouble getting the right kind of therapy due to not being able to take time off work and having to pay out of pocket (which we don't have money for either). BH no major issues going on but therapy isn't any more accessible or affordable than it was when we were poor.

Housing: BH able to buy a house OOT in a cheap area, with family help. I feel that most people in our community are buying much bigger houses in a nicer part of town but I try not to compare. While we were poor we were bursting out of a tiny apt in NY. However, the family member who helped us with the down payment was very against our living in Brooklyn and was happy for us to move OOT. They defeinitely wouldn't have helped us buy a hosue in NY, even if it would have been smarter to buy 20 years ago.

Utilities: Struggling to pay month to month. As homeowners we're responsible for water bill, heating, sanitation etc which we didn't have to pay as renters. Maintenance, you never know what might break down and when.

Transportation: Used to live in NY and never owned cars. OOT we need cars to get around and get to work. I could write a book with all our sagas, the repairs, the accidents etc. I wish I didn't need a car. I'd gladly do without this expense. Is having a more spacious house worth it? Would we be better off still living in NYC? I always ask myself this question.

Food: BH there's never been a time we've gone hungry. We always figured something out. We rarely eat out or buy takeout food. Fresh salmon is for yom tov or very special occasion. We eat chicken on shabbos, no meat. But too much animal protein isn't taht healthy anyway so I never felt we have to compromise on nutrition.

Camp: My grandparents used to pay for my kids camp. I only have one kid right now who's camp age. The rest are either old enogh to work during the summer or too young for camp. We somehow manage to pay for 1 month of camp for 1 kid but it's a struggle.

Simchas: Forget about. We make the cheapest simplest simchas possible. BH haven't had to go to gemachs so far but we are for sure in debt.

Dignity and respect: Nobody else can give you that. I just keep reminding myself of how hard I work and how far I've come. I don't really need anyone else's approbation. At some point you have to live for yourself and not for anyone else.

amother

↑ Brass

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 1:09 pm

amother OP wrote:

Thank you for your honesty and may hahsem shower you with more and more abundant wealth . I am just curious (if you dont mind me asking) how were you able to keep up with the mortgage after the financial situation going lower (unless you bought it when it was way cheap)

We bought it towards the end of the housing crash so it was cheaper. Now it’s worth double BH. Rent is more than double, almost triple! So we are better off owning this then renting. However, when our expenses did go up we went to foreclosure but BH at the last minute a govt program opened then to help refinance. The amount defaulted was put to the end of the loan as a separate loan, and the monthly payments were lowered. At the end of the loan we will have to figure out how to pay such a large lump sum, but we are hoping they will allow us to refinance then and spread it out over a few years.

We are still tight financially but trust that Hashem will provide. I take off more each check so that I should get a small refund to help with camp fees. This way we get it in the spring when the fees are due and it can’t be spent on other things.

amother

Maroon ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 1:30 pm

I'm middle class. We dont have any therapists cuz they're not free now that were off medicaid. Own a home in dire need of repairs. We go to the dentist and doctor that others on Medicaid go to except we pay copays for the services. And the ER or urgent care? Think 100 times before going because it will cost a few hundred. We use every gemach we can (not the good ones with new stylish clothes, those are for poor people) no way are we going to Cancun or the likes but we do take the kids on day trips or other small trips by car. Why are we not poor? I dont worry about Bill's not being able to be paid. If were in the red one month well make it up another. Were able to save a few grand a year. Although we cant renovate or redecorate our house all at once over time we do small parts and its nicer than when we moved in. We have 5 children and are able to pay almost full tuition. I'm able to buy them clothes and shoes although I try to be thrifty or look in a gemach first. We have everything we need baruch hashem.

↑ Trademark ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 1:44 pm

amother Emerald wrote:

Thanks

That's what I always understood, that people with in NY with Medicaid have great coverage.

amother

↑ Buttercup ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 1:45 pm

amother Brunette wrote:

Agreed, some therapists are gouging people who are in distress and it's a real avlah.
Add financial distress to whatever emotional health issue they're going through. Real recipe for therapeutic success!

And I totally agree that it's community pressure that's convincing people that they HAVE to pay for the most expensive therapist or the therapy is worthless.

amother

Zinnia ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 1:50 pm

amother OP wrote:

I wouldn't fully agree with that. I havent really used OT for PT medicaid has given decent providers who accept. I got a letter in the mail that ABA is covered an I assume that ot is as well but I ll take your word for it as I beleive you for what you say. I live in NY

I am paying 1500 a month for insurance and in my community all the clinics only take medicaid. All doctors take medicaid. The dental places don’t take my private insurance just paid out of pocket for root canal so it pays to be poor for medical benefits which would equal to working for and earning about 50k (before taxes)

amother

↑ Buttercup ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 1:58 pm

Just my thoughts, as someone who was poor, then middle class but still struggling.

I really try not to look at what other people have. Whether they have a nicer house, nicer cars, clothing, vacations, etc. I don't consider myself less worthy of respect because we use less gashmius. I work hard, I know I do valuable work. I could knock myself out trying to make more money but in the end we can't earn any more parnassah than what Hashem designated for us. Do I regret the years I spent in school in order to get a modestly paying job? Not really. I feel good using my talents and skills in a productive way. If I keep thinking well if we had done this and done that... there's no end to it.

If other people feel their survival depends on buying a fancy house in a better neighborhood--let them do what works for them. It's not my business how they afford it or where they get money from. If they want to look down on me for being on the wrong side of the tracks, they're welcome to do that too, and it's my choice how much credence I want to give to their views and values.