For all those jealous of the poor—peaceful discussion please

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Is it worth going from middle class to poor

yes

19%

[ 33 ]

80%

[ 139 ]

Total Votes : 172

amother

Celeste ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:17 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

Oh wow I think your definition of middle class and mine are not the same.

I think we're middle class, with an income - in the past few years- of between 120 and 150k.

We have exactly the same list. Not every therapist takes out insurance- if anything they'll take medicaid or you can be eligible for sliding fee scale- not us. We cant afford braces and we've been pushing this off.... DC needs braces very badly.

Vacation? Savings? Not even on the radar.

And most people I know who are on programs do own a house.

The only difference that I can see is that we both work really hard, while my friend who are on programs don't work as hard at all. Sometimes I think we are just dupes.

I'm incredulous that you think people on programs don't work hard.

amother

↑ Ivory ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:18 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

And most people I know who are on programs do own a house.

The only difference that I can see is that we both work really hard, while my friend who are on programs don't work as hard at all. Sometimes I think we are just dupes.

I hate to say it but there isn’t really a way to afford a house in a Jewish area while on all programs. With the exception of those who bought small houses in cheap areas that have since doubled in value. Then the mortgage can work out cheaper than renting.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:19 pm

amother Brass wrote:

We bought a house from when my husband first got his degree and we had 1 child. Now with a large family kah and there isn’t much room for growth that same salary is considered “poor”.

We don’t go on vacations (married over 2 decade), have missed our siblings weddings because flights are beyond our budget.

As a chabad women who only wears a shaitel outdoors I was wearing one with a torn net and missing a lot of hair because I couldn’t afford a new one. A Gemach gave me one that didn’t fit properly, wasn’t my color and the cut was not suited but it was better then nothing. My dh took his cc points and our taxes one year to finally get me to buy a cheap one. There went part of our camp payments but after a few years there was no choice.

Thank you for your honesty and may hahsem shower you with more and more abundant wealth . I am just curious (if you dont mind me asking) how were you able to keep up with the mortgage after the financial situation going lower (unless you bought it when it was way cheap)

↑ Trademark ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:21 pm

amother Ivory wrote:

Medicaid, food stamps, hud, they are all on a sliding scale. Medicaid if you start earning more the adults will lose benefits, but the kids can stay on with a copay (unless you hit the higher limit but that limit is significantly higher than the adult Medicaid limit). Food stamps, they take your income into account when they decide how much to give per month and it will be significantly lower if you earn more. Hud, you need to pay a % of your income every month toward rent. These are all sliding scales.

I'm not familiar with these programs at all. From what I understood is that many times it doesn't pay to get get paid more. Even though there might be a sliding scale up to some point, there is a sharp cut off at higher point.

The sliding scale needs to be expanded.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

amother

Daisy

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:25 pm

amother OP wrote:

I am starting a spinoff because on the other thread people were saying how the poor are getting richer and middle class is suffering etc...

Now I decided to point out what things being poor makes us lose out on and you tell me if middles class is the same (or even worse) and it would be clear if its really worth it. I would appreciate if first the poor class would comment on this first so the list be more complete but obviously it's not necessary.

When being poor there is literally no way you can get a good therapist who deals with trauma and severe cases as they do not accept Medicaid. (I have seen many who accept the non Medicaid insurances) So if you went through something extreme in life you have to either take loans to pay for it or live with it (I don't know about middle class but let me know)

You can barely go on vacation , get a trip to eretz yisroel , cancan or most of those high class hotels that people post about or are in the magazines (unless you get a signup bonus credit card which anyone can get)

I haven't seen a poor family with medicaid (who deserves medicaid and isnt making money under the table) buy a house or get a mortgage

your status in communities are usually lower when you are poor. You get less shidduchim for your child (see the other thread) aren't really recognized and chances are you will never be honored for anything in your life (even for the yeshiva dinner parents of the year award which is not important)

If there is something you really need badly and cant afford it there is no I will work more or work harder this week month etc.. becuase if you do you will lose all yor benefits.. you will always have to go to gemachs if that item or service is available or chv live without it

there is almost no room or potential to get promoted to a higher job / position/ wealth ...

you always rent and never know if you will get kicked out , will need to move , or if rent will go up

its extremely hard to save money for emergencies chv..

you are always in worry about how you will make your next simcha and will need to call this gemacch and that one and get references etc.. and work much harder and it doesn't always feel good

certain dental speialists are not covered forget about those dental costs (this is a message to be carefull about your teeth) such as endodontists, periodontists, crowns caps , and harder procedures..
to get a provider that accepts you have to go to a hospital and usually its the med students that see you who may not be that professional. To pay for a crown sometimes is over a thousand dollars (and there have been numerous threads here where people couldnt afford it)

Now this is the perspective of being poor , maybe if I get a chance I ll post the benefits as well. Those who complain about middle class you can post the challenges of being middle class and it can be an open (peacefull) discussion as honestly I have never been in your shoes so I don't know what perspective you are coming from. If anyone wants to add onto the list please feel free..

Honesty except for the Medicaid part this sounds just like us and we are middle class. To add we also have 3 drivers and 1 crappy car. Bh we r healthy

amother

Maple

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:25 pm

I'm not jealous of the poor, but yes, poor does sometimes have the same $ in their pocket at the end of the day as the middle class.

I am middle class. I own a home in a cheaper city. I could not pay the down payment and bh got some help with that from family. The monthly payments of mortgage + rent + insurance is about what I was paying for my tiny hole in the wall apartment when we lived in NY.

BH I do have medical insurance through work. If not, I don't qualify for gov't insurance and couldn't afford insurance for my family.

I get NO tuition breaks for any of my 5 children.

I get NO food help from the gov't.

We almost monthly go in the red as bills are due before pay day (which isn't the same day of the month, so I can't just change the bill due dates). We have a decent amount of debt from when my husband was out of work for months during covid that we are still recovering from. But our income + expenses doesn't make it easy. We save a tiny bit monthly to repay family loans from when we bought our house, but other than that we put away $60 per pay check (twice a month) to help pay for day camp. (Necessity as both of us work full time and my little ones can't be left to fend for themselves all day--no sleep away camp.) It doesn't nearly cover it, but it helps cushion the pain. Every big expense is a panic. We have to cut down some trees in our yard that are rotting. We don't really have the funds for it. If they fall we have the risk of insurance not covering the damage as we know they are a risk of falling. We have a fence around our property that is falling apart, that we can't afford to fix.

We can't afford big vacations. A vacation for us is once every 3 or 4 years going away for one night as a family, all in one hotel room. Winter break is either me working and the kids hanging at home or small day trips (hopefully good weather and hiking or something free or cheap).

We drive old cars (until they die) and finance them to buy another used one when they do die as we can't afford new ones.

We wear hand-me-downs or I buy cheaper end clothing. Walmart, Target, Shein, or crazy sales in local stores. Not just for my kids but for myself too (I have someone that gives stuff for myself once in a while). My teen boys do need suits/hats which you can't get in above stores. But they do pass it down to the next son when outgrown.

I could quit my job and may qualify for gov't programs. But there is pride in working and trying to help support my family. Yes, it means we go without sometimes. But I'm OK with that.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:26 pm

I'm just wondering when people post that they pay their therapist 300-400 an hour (or even 150-200 whch is a lot for us so we would never do) who is that referring to ? If it's the wealthy then not everyone is wealthy (and Im sure these therapists wouldnt want to have empty spots nor do they provide discounts)... and the poor cant afford it..

amother

↑ Seablue ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:30 pm

amother Seablue wrote:

Struggling upper middle class here.
- using the same therapists you are but paying copays and deductibles. Medicaid HMOs actually cover more than my "excellent" private insurance. We have to use clinics like ohel, Jewish board
- no vacations here. We can't even do a night at Kalahari or one of the nearby "vacations." Last time we could afford that was 6 years ago.
- we each need to work side jobs just to ensure enough money for food, meanwhile people are offering to sell us their food stamps and my kids want to know why we never have all the snacks the other kids have and need to always bring homemade stuff
- we make very decently on the books before taxes so schools charge us more tuition than we can afford, even with breaks
- so we get cut off notices for our utilities every month or two because that's at the bottom of our priority list in terms of expenses.
- worked hard my whole life and am pretty young still but am becoming more and more unable to get through each day without a breakdown. But stopping isn't an option.
-bh the big difference is we can save for emergencies. But we just had a bunch in a row and they drained everything and we're now severely in debt. I may make more but it's all going to loan and credit card payments due to our emergencies, which are still ongoing and have no way of continuing to pay for
- we have always used gemachs for anything there is a gemach available
- honors and awards? Middle class don't get that. Only wealthy donors.
- ok I own a home, sort of. The bank does. I'm terrified of the day I can't make my mortgage payment. I've come very close and after taxes were reassessed my payment went up $300/month without warning.

I'm not saying this is worse than being poor. I'm just sharing this so you don't have any illusions about middle class.

Oh yeah have a 13 year old used minivan and when it dies we don't have the money to pay for a new used car.

My only fancy jewelry is my kallah bracelet.

And it is definitely not the middle class paying up to $300 for therapy. Though the copays for insurance covered sessions eventually add up to thousands.

amother

↑ Seablue ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:32 pm

amother OP wrote:

Yes they do have plenty of empty spots. The whole point is these therapists only need a couple of clients and they make a decent living without working much. Most of them have voluntarily light schedules!

amother

Cerulean ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:32 pm

I’m poor and on programs and own a house like many others. Everything is legal.
I don’t have the issues you describe with being poor.
I’m worried about how I will pay my bills and how to avoid electricity shut off. If you are on usf they can’t shut off your electricity though.
I have great medical providers and am very happy with my quality of care all around on medicaid. You can get therapy and braces for free a lot of the time. Medicaid is wonderful in my experience.

Last edited by amother on Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Emerald ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:33 pm

amother OP wrote:

There are bh many wealthy people. And desperate ppl as well.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:35 pm

amother Seablue wrote:

Greed isn't something hard to control when you know you can make a lot by the hour. Alot of thes therapists open up podcasts and shows to attract as many people as they can so hard to beleive (althogh I still beleve you) these therapists wont live in a tiny or even average house as their salary could make more than that so they have to pay that up as well..

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:37 pm

amother Cerulean wrote:

I am happy for you (besides for the bills thing) that you are to able to buy a house while being on medicaid. Most people here would say though that it's not possible

amother

↑ Ivory ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:37 pm

Trademark wrote:

The only programs with a sharp cutoff are Medicaid and Wic. The rest gradually taper out. And when you lose access to Medicaid you can buy from marketplace instead, so I’d argue that’s how they taper off the health assistance. The limit does need to be somewhere, right?

amother

↑ Brunette ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:39 pm

amother OP wrote:

There are many people who feel pressured to go into massive debt for therapy.

And the pressure gets worse when referral organizations, schools, and here on Imamother, there's a prevailing attitude that insurance or clinic therapists are horrible and a therapist's quality is determined by how much they charge- encouraging everyone to go to the $500 therapists.

And like I said earlier, ask around how much credit card debt people have. You'd be surprised

amother

↑ OP ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:40 pm

amother Brunette wrote:

and which class is this

amother

↑ Brunette ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:41 pm

amother OP wrote:

and which class is this

Low class and low-middle class.

↑ Trademark ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:41 pm

amother Ivory wrote:

Isn't health insurance a big expense?

Once Medicaid is cut off isn't paying for insurance a huge jump?

So are saying that there isn't much truth that it often doesn't pay to earn more?

Thanks for clarifying!

amother

↑ Cerulean

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:43 pm

amother OP wrote:

I am happy for you (besides for the bills thing) that you are to able to buy a house while being on medicaid. Most people here would say though that it's not possible

Ty. Why isn’t it possible? Many people buy houses on medicaid. When are kids were little and expenses were low we lived very simply and saved up for a down payment. You are allowed to have money in saving a while being on medicaid.

amother

Royalblue ↓

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:44 pm

amother OP wrote:

Definitely not the middle class! Unless they are desperate enough to wrack up credit card debt to pay for it, which is the same as poor people.

I am middle class, not on any programs and have a high deductible health plan so NO therapy is covered until I hit my 4K deductible. That includes therapy at a clinic. No therapy for me, I just cannot afford the $150 a week at a clinic. Giving birth costs me several thousand.

Nowwhere near buying a house. We have no savings for a down payment, we’re living paycheck to paycheck.

All this while working full time jobs paying a decent amount.

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