In vs out of house

freidasima ↓

Wed, Apr 30 2008, 1:21 am

Breslov I hear you and happen to agree.
Here's the thing, the world is a very diversified place and in our hashkafa we believe in enjoying to the fullest whatever we can. And what our rabbonim believe falls into the category of "we can" is all things that are mutar, just that other groups prefer to be machmir and not do. Their choice.

But here's the lowdown. They aren't ossur al pi hatorah. When one says "heter" one things, hey that's like the pope giving a dispensation lehavdil for something ossur. It's not. There is very little that is "absolutely ossur"...ok, I'm not talking about a pregnant lady that gets a yen for a piece of bacon and will die without it so you are allowed to feed her bacon day and night until the light comes back to her eyes (halachic terminology)...I'm talking about using this hechsher as opposed to that hechsher.

Cholov Yisroel versus Akum is one of those things. You cant drink treif milk. Period. But we know that in the western world today with everything mechanized and laws against it, there is no pig/camel/horse milk in our whatever brand we used from the supermarket. So to call it a "heter" is a misnomer. It is plain ordinary KOSHER. So you can use it. You prefer to be machmir and give your business to a religious dairy or one that pays a mashgiach? Go ahead. But remember that the rest is still kosher, at least in the west.

Now for tv. Depends what they are watching. Tom and Jerry cartoons? A decent (I emphaise DECENT) movie? A sitcom that is clean? Why not...you don't want to have tv in the house as it's a time waster? Fine and dandy. If you don't have a TV because your rabbonim tell you that it is "issur betachlis haissur"? a "machshir toeva?" that you should cover your eyes if you pass by a TV store?? That's a different story. Then you are a hypocrite. But in the western world today, there is TV and there is TV. That's what machmir or shtark MO's do. We use our brain to decide that this is ok to watch while another program isn't. And in most of our homes it's not the idiot box that acts as a babysitter but used sparingly, for information, sometimes for relaxation. etc.

So if you hold from that, no problem in having your kids watch TV at your parents, in a hotel etc. Don't make it into a novelty, and they won't glue their eyes to the screen all the time.

Internet, same thing goes. It's a terrific thing. Just look at all of us. You want to limit your kids and let them see only things that you have control over, fine and dandy, guess what, when they grow up you won't be there to control them...so maybe start by teaching them the power o f self control when they are in their late whatever, 10, 12, 14 depending on the kid. Younger than that? Well I don't think you have to worry about a six year old surfing for [filth] because if they do, they won't know what they are seeing, will probably ask and make a strange comment and that's a terrific opportunity to explain. Hopefully they won't make it to those sites. That to tell you the truth, isn't the biggest of my worries today...

In other words, make really really sure what you decide is ossur forever everyplace in the world no matter what, kind of stuff...it's a dangerous thing to say about something and use it for your real red lines...and you will find that your kids respect you.

AS for tznius city and tznius country, that's so famous...and such a joke...but there are always city and country clothes and so there is a difference which is normal. But tight clothes? No where. Different colors? Sure, just like different fabrics which is also fine...wearing a snood instead of a sheitl all the time? Even I have been known to do that on vacation if it's just family and we aren't going out...or like next week, when we have to go to the dessert to see youngest ds sworn in to his army unit, you bed your sweet life I'm not wearing my beautiful band fall sheitl...in the sand??? To have to wash it afterwards and have it fly around when the whatevers go off all the time??? No way Jose...a big hat with everything tucked in to keep the sun of my poor white skin...

What I mean is that it isn't hypocrytical, it's human. It's like eating on a vacation. You diet at home because you want to have and instill good eating habits...but if you go on vacation, you chill out and if the kids want candy bars or whatever their poison of preferance is for breakfast you make a face, say "feh" and unless they are babies, you usually even let them for two or three days...just "for the fun".

Let's not forget, life isnt' supposed to be a total 24/7 drudge. It can be fun. And you can show them that on vacation you don't forget the really important things. Davening, learning daf yomi, saying your perek, etc. But you can wear looser and lighter clothes, eat a bit of junk and see a bit of mutar kind of junk on video/tv etc....

And then go back to real life.

ora_43

Wed, Apr 30 2008, 1:59 am

IMO hypocrisy is doing something you criticize others for doing, not just holding different standards in different places. So, for example, deciding not to buy a TV but then watching shows online is not hypocritical unless you criticize those who watch TV on a TV set. People who don't eat heter mechira at home but eat it out aren't hypocrites unless they look down on those who hold by heter mechira all the time.

From a chinuch perspective, though, something can be problematic without being hypocritical. So even though it isn't hypocritical to, say, eat one standard of kosher at home but a different one in restaurants, it can be very confusing to kids who don’t understand—is it important to keep this kind of kosher, or not? (is it important to avoid TV or not, etc).

I think the main thing is to be clear about why you hold a particular way. So if you eat chalav israel at home but not at the grandparents’, you can explain that you do this b/c of kibud av v’em, etc. If you don’t own a tv but let the kids watch dvds on the computer or watch at bubbie’s house, you can explain that it’s a special treat, and that tv is not 100% assur but just something you don’t want in your house. etc.

(Btw sometimes the reason for doing something at home but not out is just that a person is still growing in a particular area (but there’s no logical reason not to be just as strict out of the house). IMO that’s also perfectly legitimate. Ex, just because I have a weakness for an inappropriate TV show that I haven’t managed to beat, doesn’t mean I have to let my kids watch that show. Why should all of us be doing something wrong, better it just be me (this is assuming I’m trying to beat my yetzer hara for watching this show, and not just holding myself to a different standard then the kids). It’s like people who start keeping kosher by keeping only at home—it might seem weird (do they think kosher is important or not?) but it’s actually a great start, kosher 80% of the time is better than 0%, and real change is often best made in increments.)

As for those who claim it’s hypocrisy to be flexible or to be only partially strong in a particular area, I think they’re often just defensive. If they say “oh, so-and-so is such a hypocrite, she doesn’t have Internet at home but she uses it at the library,” they can dismiss concerns about the Internet or the Internet and kids without having to do too much thinking (btw not looking to start a fight here—clearly I’m not against home Internet since I’m on it right now, just using an example).

ChossidMom ↓

Wed, Apr 30 2008, 3:04 am

I like Ora's post.
I wouldn't call it hypocritical to let your kids watch tv at Grandma.
But, they are going to be very confused about whether tv is really ok or not.
and, if it's really important to you that they don't become tv addicts you have to ask yourself if you want them to get started.

I davka do not let my kids veg in front of the tv at my parents' house, as easy as it would make my life. Actually, once I did let them watch 101 Dalmations and they went wild over it. I hope it wasn't a big mistake.

I NEVER let my kids eat chalav akum at their grandparents. Kashrus is a different issue entirely. One that needs to be discussed with a rav. No, it's not treif, as some people besheeta have no problem with chalav akum. But according to many rabbonim it is certainly assur in Israel where so much cholov yisroel is available. (Unfortunately, my mother buys alot of OU dairy cereals for the house.

I'm with Shalhevet on relaxing certain "mehadrin" kashrus standards at the home of my parents, for example. There are hechsherim which we won't bring in to the house, but bedieved at my folks - we'll eat.

I am a bit unclear, Breslov, if you were talking about being hypocritical about yourself or about the things you will allow your children. I don't think it's hypocritical to not have a tv but to watch at a hotel. I almost never even turn on the tv at hotels anymore. But hypocritical? No way.
Lehefech. I applaud myself for keeping shmutz out of my home.

Imaonwheels ↓

Wed, Apr 30 2008, 3:35 am

Internet and tv and CY are 2 different questions.

Not every parent who holds a different standard need you to compromise. Our yishuv rav is very strict by DL standards. He is the head of the kashrut department in the Shomron. Many of the residents are the children of rabbonim and talmidei chachamim who hold "normal DL" - chalav akum, heter mechira, rabbanut regil, etc.

Parents who are healthy and have a good Torah background can handle that their married child holds by their own standards machmir or mekhil. I have a friend whose parents were frum before the Holocaust but no longer. Their children all took different paths and B"H 2 of 3 are frum. But it is one Lubavitch and one Bar Ilan MO.

Their house is kosher on the level of their younger dd. My friend, the Lubavitcher was told by the rav to eat there even though he paskened only shechita Lubavitch in the house for them but to get a higher level chicken. The mother buys one of the readily available mehadrin chickens when they come. Her dh doesn't like eating by me but he goes at least once a month to his in laws.

If one holds CY there are 2 major problems - one halachic and one chinuchi.
1. There are, not just Lubavitch certainly most chassidic poskim, who hold that there is no heter for an adult to have CA. It is not a chumra but an issur mentioned in the SA. CY in Israel is no extra work or expense in EY, here the heter is ludicrous. Chassidim also take in account the spiritual damage mentioned any time CA is mentioned in books of chassidus and kabbala.

2. Kids need black and white as much as posssible. We as BTs or mechazkim adults deal with shades of gray. A kid living among chassidim and being educated as one will not ever think of CY as an option and will not begin to understand the fine points until an age when his educators will be sure that the exposure to other opinions will not weaken his kabbalas ol. If the parent emotional needs that compromise, as determined by a posek then a child old enough to understand the compromise is most of the time able to understand that this is a heter for Bubby's house only because iot is a mitzva.

Last edited by Imaonwheels on Wed, Apr 30 2008, 3:44 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ Seraph ↓

Wed, Apr 30 2008, 3:50 am

TzenaRena wrote:

breslov wrote:

And if I accidentally buy something non cholov yisroel, I'll eat it. better not be over the avera of bal tashchis than keep the chumra of cholov yisroel.

just incidentally, cholov yisrael is not a chumra, it's a halacha, while certain limited heterim have been found for non cholov yisroel under particular circumstances, it doesn't relegate cy to "chumra" status.

As for bal taschis, it is never an aveira to throw out non-kosher or forbidden food. It is not even an aveira to throw out questionable food. Bal tashchis simply does not apply there.

Wouyld you hesitate to throw out spoiled or moldy food? Or risk someone chas v'sholom getting sick from it? Just as bal taschis doesn't apply there, it's the same with food that isn't acceptable by Kashrus standards.

well, interesting that you say this, because my parents taught me to try to use up spoiled food if at all possible. I am planning on making waffles with my spoiled milk and yoghurt this afternoon, as cooking it kills bacteria, and it actually tastes nice with spoiled milk products.
(and I cut off moldy bits of cheese or bread and use the rest in cooked products.)
so yes, my shita is if its possible to save something that isnt 100% ok, then do it.
So my not throwing out chalav akum when there is a heter to eat it falls in the same category, I think.

↑ catonmylap

Wed, Apr 30 2008, 4:18 am

TzenaRena wrote:

Quote:

Chalav Akum is said to do bad things to your neshama. It's rather a big responsibility to take with one's kids.

I respect that you feel that you need to eat only chalav yisroel. But I take offense that you think those who don't are eating treif. That is the impression I get from these posts.

If it is kosher on some level, it is still kosher. It's one thing to say you hold by a higher standard, it's another thing to look down on people who don't.

For the record, some people also make a distinction between milk powder chalav akum and regular. The only type of chalav akum that Breslov is likely to find in Israel is milk powder chalav akum. Outside of Israel, it is really chalav akum, but there might not be that much availability in terms of cholav yisroel products.

I can't imagine going back to our parents in the states and refusing to eat chalav akum, that would be such a breech of kibud av v'em.

↑ freidasima

Wed, Apr 30 2008, 4:19 am

First Imaonwheels, what in the world is Bar Ilan MO?

Second, I understand the business of some people totally ossuring video, TV, etc. although I can't understand it about video, particularly some of the really good and clean stuff that exists or nature or health programs but let that be.

What I don't understand is that people dont seem to get the idea behind chalav akum. It's not the fact that he is an akum (and today there aren't that many of them around according to whatever shita you go, some claim that Moslems aren't akum, some claim that Xtians aren't akum, so that's a moot point).

It's an issue of kashrus. If you can be sure 100% that you are getting cows milk that is 100% cows milk, then you can drink it, period, no matter who milked the cow and no matter who was there. The problem comes up when you can't be sure.

Once again, drinking what you call chalav stam today in the western world is not chalav akum, is not milk milked by someone you can't trust. You CAN trust them in terms of kashrus because of the local laws, because of their enforcement, because of hygiene standards and because we are talking about the USA or Canada for example. So in truth, today there is absolutely no issue of CY in America, if people want to keep it, fine, but it is NOT an issue of Kashrus today in 2008, it is a hiddur.

Therefore let's keep it in proportion.

↑ ChossidMom ↓

Wed, Apr 30 2008, 4:34 am

catonmylap wrote:

Quote:

Chalav Akum is said to do bad things to your neshama. It's rather a big responsibility to take with one's kids.

I do not look down on ANYONE who eats chalav akum. You got the wrong impression. I talked about the neshama because Breslov is very "Chassidishly inclined" (did I express that right, Breslov?). My intention is not to put down her or anyone else who eats CA (which includes MANY members of my family). I was just explaining about Chalav Akum. Tzena Rena was talking about the halachic aspects. I chose to address the spiritual aspects. That's all.

If you take offense at someone explaining why they keep a certain mitzva/minhag which you don't keep, then how can anyone talk about anything on this board?

↑ Seraph ↓

Wed, Apr 30 2008, 4:37 am

ChossidMom wrote:

Breslov,
Seeing as you are on your way to "full time Chassidus" I would really ask your rav/rebbe about the issue of ba'al tashchis vs. chalav akum. Chalav Akum is said to do bad things to your neshama. It's rather a big responsibility to take with one's kids. BTW you are MILES above where I was at your age. You constantly amaze me with how you are always questioning and working on yourself. IY"H you will go far and high.

Ali Vehatzlichi!!!

well for now, we still pasken halacha according to our litvish rav, but I'll add that to the list of questions to ask my rav the next time I speak to him. I try not to call him too often- I therefore save up questions- because as it is I call him once every 2-3 weeks and he recognizes my voice already by now... Tongue Out

thanks for the compliment, chossidmom.

(p.s. I do have a yetzer hora for certain chalav stam products, which is what makes it even harder for me to not eat chalav stam on a regular basis. It takes a LOT of self control each time I pass the cereal section and forgo all my favorite chalav akum cereals and instead buy none, or buy the imitation israeli stuff which in my opinion tastes worse than... but I'm working on myself.)

↑ Seraph

Wed, Apr 30 2008, 4:39 am

ChossidMom wrote:

catonmylap wrote:

Quote:

Chalav Akum is said to do bad things to your neshama. It's rather a big responsibility to take with one's kids.

I appreciate that. (I'd say at this point we're a little more than just chassidishly inclined- more like chasitvish with a DL touch.)

Where is it brought down about chalav akum and the neshama (and of course, I'm talking about undeniably cow milk as opposed to questionable milk which is triefe mamash.)? I would love to see a sourse.

↑ Imaonwheels ↓

Wed, Apr 30 2008, 5:18 am

FM, Bar Ilan MO is my term. Israel has chareidi and most people know what it is even if they haven't tasted all of the flavors. At one time DL and MO walked and talked alike, used the same schools but had different emphasis. Today with the exception of the kippa sruga (and even that is not always the same) they have little in common. The DL camp has in many ways returned to the charedim from which they came (none of the major DL rabbonim could have ever been called MO). Bar Ilan is the symbol of that school of halachic thought that embraces the secular culture but holds the Jewish culture under close scrutiny. Value leniency in purely halachic matters and strictness in societal ethics.

Practically it means acceptance of any rabbinical certification, rejection of glatt as necessary, heter mechira as a l'chatchila and not a heter and not really reading the fine print on R' Moshe's heter (still trying to get it in full from someone who has Igros Moshe, have asked on 3 boards) to read the label and you decide.

And in the original context where I used this term the woman I mentioned is a Bar Ilan trained professional and still lives in their academic circles.

Last edited by Imaonwheels on Wed, Apr 30 2008, 5:42 am; edited 1 time in total

Newsie ↓

Wed, Apr 30 2008, 5:24 am

When we started eating only CY, whenever we visited my parents or in-laws, they bought all CY for us and my mom hid any non-CY stuff from my son so that he won't want it and we won't have to say you can't have it, but Bubby can...
In terms of TV, movies- we have not been strict when we go to my parents or in-laws and I (and my rebbeim) do not have a problem when my kids watch Sesame Street and the like in the mornings. I view programs like these in a positive light in that they are educational and teach good values. The reason why I don't want them in my house is because I don't like the vegging out, wasting time and lack of individual creativity that TV sometimes promotes. The question will be when my kids get older and are not interested in Sesame Street, will I still allow it.
My son has asked me why we don't have a TV when Bubby has one and I told him that there are many things on TVs that are not good for our neshamot so we don't want one. And when we go to Bubby's, we are only allowed to watch certain shows that are ok for children. He accepted that. Whether I am hypocritical, I don't know. I do know that we are all growing and this is what we do now and I am comfortable with it and perhaps I won't be in a few years...