Speak no Evil | Imamother

↑ b.chadash ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:36 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

There seem to be some Rabbanin who feel differently. I for one, was happy when posters linked responses by Rabbanim etc. We are looking for guidance on how to view this tragedy, and there were indeed some helpful posts. Imamother is my only source of information at this time.

For those who feel these discussions have no toeles, feel free to skip those threads.

100% agree.
Which responses did you find enlightening?

↑ taketwo ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:37 pm

Fox wrote:

Sorry, but I stand by every word. I have been on Imamother since 2007, and I am increasingly sickened by the excuses for gossip.

Anyone who truly cares about abuse and its victims will not be dissecting tragedies on Imamother. You will be pressuring your local rabbonim to set up special batei din; hold asifas; and educate teachers on how to handle signs of abuse. That's what abuse survivors in my community did back in the 1980s.

If you need help "processing" this tragedy, I suggest you look to Jewish history, where there are ample examples to draw from, none of which involve further traumatizing survivors.

If you are a survivor of abuse yourself, understand that in no way am I underestimating or minimizing your experiences. On the contrary, I believe that chewing over the details of such tragedies is itself ultimately invalidating -- it reduces your personal pain to an opportunity for non-victims to soapbox while making no real changes.

You are the one guilty of this. Over and over again.

Get your head out of 1980. We are in 2021 going in to 22 now. Get with reality.

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:40 pm

Fox wrote:

So well put. I would like to add one more food for thought.

It is actually the chewing over the details and the community wide gossips that hold back many victims from coming forward. So in essence, the continued gossip is doing exactly the opposite of the purported intent. It is having victims choose between two evils - stay stuck with the abuse or become the community fodder.

↑ Rubies ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:42 pm

Fox wrote:

This.
In real life, the people that stand by the survivors of abuse aren't joining into online gossip.
Myself included.
It's ironic that on this site the fact that you don't believe it's right to discuss details, probe for info so you can form your 'opinion', or the belief that this isn't the place to discuss ltoeles puts you on the side of abusers and victim shamers. So sad.

↑ Rubies ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:42 pm

jkl wrote:

Well said.

↑ taketwo ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:43 pm

jkl wrote:

So well put. I would like to add one more food for thought.

It is actually the chewing over the details and the community wide gossips that hold back many victims from coming forward. So in essence, the continued gossip is doing exactly the opposite of your intent. It is having victims choose between two evils - stay stuck with the abuse or become the community fodder.

So much ignorance. It is actually those who don't waht to hear the abuse, stopping victims from coming forward. Who wants to come forward when nobody wants to hear it.

You and fox claim to know what abuse victims want and need. Where are you taking your ignorant assumptions from?

↑ Fox ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:43 pm

taketwo wrote:

You are the one guilty of this. Over and over again.

Get your head out of 1980. We are in 2021 going in to 22 now. Get with reality.

Yes, because aimless gossip is okay in 2022?

I understand that you are coming from a point of personal pain, and I respect that. But your disregard for victims of abuse does you no credit. Nor does the fallacious accusation that I don't take abuse seriously just because I disagree with your desire to out victims.

Yes, it's not 1980 -- so please explain to me why so many communities haven't yet set up the infrastructure to handle abuse cases. And explain why you think that endless talk about specific cases gets us any further toward establishing such infrastructure.

↑ b.chadash ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:44 pm

jkl wrote:

I agree with all the lessons you've written above. But I fail to see the connection how repeated gossiping and teasing out the little details leads to any of these. Please explain how it works.

So I'm really not sure why you keep harping on this point. I actually don't see any gossip or salaciousness. Other than calling Cw a rasha, and I assume we can agree that lashan hara does not apply to him- who else are we talking lashan hara about?

I don't understand the whole premise here.
There are probably more than 10 threads open. They are discussing what to do with the books, how to view other people who had an influence on Klal Yisroel who were then found to be perverted, what is on the mind of a predator, how to talk to kids about this, if the schools talked about it..where exactly is the gossiping?

Last edited by b.chadash on Sat, Jan 01 2022, 7:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ taketwo ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:47 pm

Fox wrote:

Because people like you exist. People like you claiming that you know what's best for victims, while at the same time saying processing and talking is gossiping and calling posters talking about it horrible names.

I need to work harder on my mental health. I have tried so hard to stop getting drawn into these conversations. But then I read your comments and I am too disgusted to not post.

↑ Rubies ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:47 pm

iyar wrote:

Being able to express yourself eloquently is a gift. Because eloquent speakers and writers are often looked up to and listened to they need to be especially careful what they say. Stating that "99 percent of women who complain about rampant abuse in the frum world or tolerance of such abuse are amoral liars cloaking their own awful middos" and referring to people as "secondary predators" when the predator under discussion committed heinous crimes, doesn't seem to show that the writer is going to any great lengths to watch what she says in a very difficult situation.
I agree with b chadash and Mommygate8 and they've already expressed whatever I had to say about this tragedy more eloquently than I can.

Fox is right. I agree with the quote as that is sadly the reality. You might be in the 1% and the victims speaking due to their pain not included. Anyone else isn't actually doing anything to benefit victims by relishing gossipy details.
Yes to awareness and discussion regarding knowledge to proceed. No to gossip.

I have yet to see any Rav encourage or endorse gossip.

↑ Rubies ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:50 pm

taketwo wrote:

You are confusing processing with gossiping. I'm so sorry for your pain.

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:51 pm

taketwo wrote:

And this is precisely why this shouldn't be allowed to discuss. Do you know me, do you know my background, do you have any inkling of what my childhood was like? Are you so sure that I haven't endured my own personal h*ll, that I have deep insight to abuse situations, that you feel free to resort to derogatory terms and hurtful accusations?

Even if you yourself endured abuse, what makes you think that all abuse victims think alike? Who on earth gave you the mouthpiece to speak for all abused victims. And anyone who dares to think otherwise, victim or no victim, must be either ignorant or supporting abuse themselves.?

Shame on you! In one way, I'm glad that this thread is non-anonymous, because if and when you do decide to apologize, you know how to do that. On the other hand, its a pity its non-anonymous that I can't disclose my background exactly in a way that would have you eating crow for a very long time.

Shame on you again.!

Last edited by jkl on Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ Fox ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:53 pm

taketwo wrote:

I will be happy to tell you.

I believe that every victim is a unique individual who should receive the best treatment available and should be empowered to make his/her own decisions about whether to address the abuse publicly.

I believe that abuse should not be treated with one-size-fits-all responses, but that each case must be handled with the ultimate goals in mind -- removing the predator and healing the victim.

I believe that much of the discussion that is cloaked as "raising awareness" is an excuse for gossip that frequently is more damaging than helpful to victims.

I have seen evidence in my own community that the real solution is to create infrastructure that handles such cases swiftly, sensitively, and focused first and foremost on what the individual needs.

If you believe that treating people as individuals -- not as object lessons -- shows my "ignorance," then I am proud to be ignorant.

↑ allthingsblue ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:54 pm

Fox wrote:

I am sickened by gossip that has no purpose. But I clearly see a purpose in discussing this:
1. Children (and parents my age) who read his books really might have difficulty processing their feelings and reconciling what happened. Talking about it and reading different perspectives is helpful.
2. I am sure many abuse survivors are triggered by what seems to be denial or just sticking-head-in-the-sand- from the community and from comments online. By people coming out and showing support, hopefully it can lessen the pain.

Not taking about it really seems like people don’t care.

↑ taketwo ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:55 pm

jkl wrote:

I don't need to apologize. You are allowed to explain yourself and say you're not coming from an ignorant place. It sure sounds like you and Fox are. Since all the mental health professionals and the victims of s-xual abuse I know, all think very differently from you two.

Last edited by taketwo on Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ allthingsblue ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:55 pm

Fox wrote:

In many communities, the infrastructure only begins to be built after much noise is made online and in other forums by community members about the topic.

↑ Rubies ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:57 pm

taketwo wrote:

That's your opinion.

Yes it is. Here's how it was formed: a thread for abuse survivors to process and discuss is an online support group.
A thread open to anyone to join, comment, or assume things is for general discussion. General discussion in a virtual anonymous forum descends into gossip, by default.

↑ Fox ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 2:01 pm

taketwo wrote:

You seem to have our roles reversed. You are the one advocating for details to be discussed so publicly that friends and neighbors can easily figure out victims' identities -- as opposed to allowing individual victims the agency to decide how public they wish to be.

If someone needs to "process" a particular tragedy, she needs to do so privately in a way that does no additional harm.

Here's my suspicion: I suspect most people who read my harsh words against gossiping about tragedies secretly realize that, yes, they were simply gossiping and feel some embarrassment over it. They aren't one iota more enlightened about abuse than they were before, and they've done zilch to make their communities safer.