Speak no Evil | Imamother

↑ Fox ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:50 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Unfortunately, many lives ARE ruined. I think it's an important point that needs to be acknowledged.

There seems to be one person living in Israel who just committed suicide because of what is going on. I don't know details, I don't want to know details, but just from this fact alone, yes, her life was ruined. Totally and completely ruined.

Again, do you think it's helpful to say to victims, "Whoa! I guess your life is ruined now!"

People have horrible, awful things happen to them. Compassion is not zero-sum. We can have compassion for abuse victims without taking any compassion for victims of physical illness, mental illness, accidents, loss of loved ones,, random violence, lack of parnosseh, or anything that makes life miserable.

Telling someone her life is ruined doesn't mean we're taking the problem more seriously. It just means we don't care who we hurt as long as we express our outrage.

↑ taketwo ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:54 pm

Fox wrote:

I understand that your personal experiences were horribly painful, and I am thankful that you had support to heal as much as possible.

That said, I don't believe gossiping about tragic situations helps anyone. It is not contradictory to take abuse seriously AND believe that gossip does more harm than good. Frankly, I'm sick of the mentality that people who invade the privacy of others in order to chew over the details and virtue signal about how awful they find it . . . are somehow seen as taking abuse more seriously.

If victims wish to share their stories for whatever reason, no one is stopping them. But gossiping about a situation is doesn't empower victims and it certainly doesn't validate them. It's just ghoulish.

If people were serious about dealing with abuse in the frum community, Rabbi Fuerst, sh'lita would have no time to speak about seminaries; he would be on the phone all day helping communities set up special batei din that consult with psychologists and law enforcement. That would be a show of taking abuse seriously, and it's not happening. Talking about how awful abuse is does nothing at this point.

You mention Rabbi Fuerst. But you fail to mention Rabbi YY Jacobson, Rabbi Eisenmann, and others.

Last edited by taketwo on Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ Fox ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:01 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Details seem unfortunately to be necessary when people say - oh, no, it's all made up, it didn't happen. I wish there was another way....

Which brings us back to the role of gossip. In what possible universe should any of us feel the need to decide whether accusations in such a situation are true? In what possible universe are we qualified to do so?

We've had situations in Chicago where accusations were 100 percent true, and we've had a few cases I'm aware of where the accusations were false, typically fueled by mental illness.

Both scenarios are tragic. End of story.

↑ Fox ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:03 pm

taketwo wrote:

You mention Rabbi Fuerst. But you fail to mention Rabbi YY Jacobson, Rabbi Eisenmann, Rabbi Breitowitz and others.

Okay -- I'm assuming you're saying that they have also set up special batei din in their communities to handle cases of abuse?

If so, I'm glad to hear that, and I hope more communities follow suit.

↑ b.chadash ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:06 pm

jkl wrote:

To prove Fox's point, look at how many of these threads were locked. Ask yourself, why they're being locked.

Are you serious? Can't Believe It

They were not locked because of salacious gossip.
They were locked because Yael and the mods felt they should give the family some privacy, and because it's an inyan not to talk about a dead person during Shiva (according to Yael).
But obviously, they reconsidered and opened all of those threads.
They had to balance those sentiments with the real need for women to discuss and process this horror.

Last edited by b.chadash on Sat, Jan 01 2022, 7:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ b.chadash ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:08 pm

jkl wrote:

It is about processing, but we're using the secular method to do that - gossip.

The discussions are all about looking back, there isn't much talk about going forward.

No we are processing in the Jewish way- Cheshbon hanefesh.
First we have to look at the past and present in order to plan for the future.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:08 pm

Fox wrote:

There seem to be some Rabbanin who feel differently. I for one, was happy when posters linked responses by Rabbanim etc. We are looking for guidance on how to view this tragedy, and there were indeed some helpful posts. Imamother is my only source of information at this time.

For those who feel these discussions have no toeles, feel free to skip those threads.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:14 pm

Fox wrote:

If people were serious about dealing with abuse in the frum community, Rabbi Fuerst, sh'lita would have no time to speak about seminaries; he would be on the phone all day helping communities set up special batei din that consult with psychologists and law enforcement. That would be a show of taking abuse seriously, and it's not happening. Talking about how awful abuse is does nothing at this point.

Fox, I think this is exactly the point why people keep talking about this. Exactly because we are hoping that if we discuss it enough, the above will happen.

I haven't been on ima long enough to have realized the pattern you mentioned. I'm still naive and stupid and I was still hoping things might change. Thank you for clarifying, they never will, so I might as well stop posting and go make Shabbos. And a wonderful Shabbos to you all!

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:16 pm

b.chadash wrote:

No we are processing in the Jewish way- Cheshbon hanefesh.
First we have to look at the past and present in order to plan for the future.

You've got me really confused. I thought this was all about l'toeles - discussing forward fixes? I'm still waiting to see any discussion about a forward fix despite all the claims that this is the purpose of thes many threads.

And if it is indeed so, that we have to look at the past - how far does that go? How many times do we need to chew over the same discussion again and again to be able to plan for the future. To what degree must the little details be teased out so that a plan can be build for the future? To what extent must we disparage one Rabbi's approach against the other to plan for the future? How many times do we need to drag victims through this supposed process of 'looking at the past', before we are satisfied enough to work out a plan for the future?

Let's just keep telling ourselves, ahem, that this is all about l'toeles, and it's nothing about satisfying our personal selves. If we say it often enough, even our subconscious will be forced to believe it.

↑ b.chadash ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:20 pm

Fox wrote:

The only appropriate response is reminding the klal that we put our trust in Hashem, not in authors of popular books.

There's no moral lesson here that people need explained. Were people somehow unaware that s-xual relations outside of marriage are wrong or that manipulating someone into an inappropriate relationship is a terrible aveira?

It is a sad and tragic story for everyone involved. Teasing out the details is both unnecessary and hurtful to everyone.

With all due respect, I can think of several other lessons to be learned from this story.

1. Use this opportunity to review with your kids the rules of personal boundaries. Tell them that they can always come to you and they should never keep a secret from you.

2. It's a lesson for anyone in a public position to look out for the vulnerable, and to believe victims. You might be the first point of address that the victim comes to.

3. Learn about what happens when people don't stand up for what's wrong. As was mentioned in another thread, the gadlus of Moshe Rabbeinu is seen from his youth, when he went out to the field and mixed into a fight that was not his. He saw a man beating a jew to death and he did not stand idly by. Rashi says he gave his eyes and heart to be pained for them.
He also mixed in the next day when he saw two people fighting, and he stepped in to help the vulnerable girls who were being molested in Midyan.
We can take the lesson never to sit idly by when your brother's or sister's blood is being spilled.

4. We learn that power corrupts people and "ain apitropus le'arayos". No one is immune. The Torah laws are there for everyone, no one is above them.

There are more lessons, I'm sure others can add. Sometimes teasing out the details is where we learn the lessons.

Last edited by b.chadash on Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

iyar ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:20 pm

Rubies wrote:

Oh how I wish my thoughts are expressed as eloquently as yours.

Being able to express yourself eloquently is a gift. Because eloquent speakers and writers are often looked up to and listened to they need to be especially careful what they say. Stating that "99 percent of women who complain about rampant abuse in the frum world or tolerance of such abuse are amoral liars cloaking their own awful middos" and referring to people as "secondary predators" when the predator under discussion committed heinous crimes, doesn't seem to show that the writer is going to any great lengths to watch what she says in a very difficult situation.
I agree with b chadash and Mommygate8 and they've already expressed whatever I had to say about this tragedy more eloquently than I can.

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:24 pm

b.chadash wrote:

With all due respect, I can think of several other lessons to be learned from this story.

1. Use this opportunity to review with your kids the rules of personal boundaries. Tell them that they can always come to you and they should never keep a secret from you.

2. It's a lesson for anyone in a public position to look out for the vulnerable, and to believe victims. You might be the first point of address that the victim comes to.

3. Learn about what happens when people don't stand up for what's wrong. As was mentioned in another thread, the gadlus of Moshe Rabbeinu is seen from his youth, when he went out to the field and mixed into a fight that was not his. He saw a man beating a jew to death and he did not stand idly by. Rashi says he gave his eyes and heart to be pained for them.
He also mixed in the next day when he saw two people fighting, and he stepped in to help the vulnerable girls who were being molested in Midyan.
We can take the lesson never to sit idly by when your brothers blood is being spilled.

4. We learn that power corrupts people and ain apitropus le'arayos. No one is immune. The Torah laws are there for everyone, no one is above them.

There are more lessons, I'm sure others can add. Sometimes teasing out the details is where we learn the lessons.

I agree with all the lessons you've written above. But I fail to see the connection how repeated gossiping and teasing out the little details leads to any of these. Please explain how it works.

↑ taketwo ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:25 pm

iyar wrote:

Thank you.

number

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:32 pm

jkl wrote:

It is about processing, but we're using the secular method to do that - gossip.

The discussions are all about looking back, there isn't much talk about going forward.

Yes, since when are we allowed to gossip in public in order to process? One private confidante, sure. But just to discuss without regard for who sees it? How is that ok?

↑ Fox ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:34 pm

iyar wrote:

Sorry, but I stand by every word. I have been on Imamother since 2007, and I am increasingly sickened by the excuses for gossip.

Anyone who truly cares about abuse and its victims will not be dissecting tragedies on Imamother. You will be pressuring your local rabbonim to set up special batei din; hold asifas; and educate teachers on how to handle signs of abuse. That's what abuse survivors in my community did back in the 1980s.

If you need help "processing" this tragedy, I suggest you look to Jewish history, where there are ample examples to draw from, none of which involve further traumatizing survivors.

If you are a survivor of abuse yourself, understand that in no way am I underestimating or minimizing your experiences. On the contrary, I believe that chewing over the details of such tragedies is itself ultimately invalidating -- it reduces your personal pain to an opportunity for non-victims to soapbox while making no real changes.