[STORY] Damsel in Distress (Update #16 - 26 Iyar p. 23)

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Oct 28 2021, 12:07 pm

cbsp wrote:

I'm really really really enjoying this.

Maybe it was the early hour that I read it, but I'm missing the implications of this :

Hidden:

Like Snowdrop said. As far as this girl is concerned, she is SURE it will be a Chuppas Niddah if she waits until Tuesday. And that means that there can be no Yichud for a full 12+ days! The Cohens can't possibly be their Shomrim for the full time. First of all they have to get out of Building Three already. Second of all they need to give the "last class" to a few more couples, and wouldn't be able to stay in the apartment with them.

For Chava, however unpleasant, it's only a few more days, and there are built in Shomrim until everyone else gets married.

amother

Pumpkin ↓

Thu, Oct 28 2021, 12:24 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

OTOH, there are serious concerns of dam chimud for all three kallos whose chasunos were rescheduled (subject to a machlokes Acharonim). And getting married while niddah from dam chimud (as opposed to niddah from menstrual bleeding) is halachically more severe and actually prohibited and only allowed b'shaas hadchak (which this likely is, but this approach is still rather halachically complex).

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Oct 28 2021, 12:26 pm

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

Interesting, I'll have to look into that. My understanding had been that pushing OFF a chasunah is far more serious than pushing one up.

ETA: From my cursory research, Dam Chimud is mostly considered to be at the time of the proposal, which SHOULD mean they're all safe (at least according to some opinions...). http://ou.org.s3.amazonaws.com.....h.pdf

amother

↑ Pumpkin ↓

Thu, Oct 28 2021, 12:48 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Interesting, I'll have to look into that. My understanding had been that pushing OFF a chasunah is far more serious than pushing one up.

There is a long-standing minhag not to push off a chasunah that was already scheduled, though I don't know if niddah concerns are included in that.

There is no problem in pushing one up, in general. But moving a chasunah date up to a time within a week of the decision poses problems. (You can move up a chasunah date from February to December with no problem. But moving up the date from February to next week is problematic.)

The reason for this is that any woman who agrees to get married has to count shiva nekiim. This is true even if the woman is tehora already (I.e. has been to a mikvah and not seen any blood since the tevilah -- relevant for second marriages with a post-menopausal kallah). It was instituted by Chazal because they were concerned that in the emotions of preparing to get married, a woman might release a tiny amount of blood and not feel or see it (dam chimud).

In usual cases, the kallah agrees to the chasunah and then counts shiva nekiim, is toveles, and gets married and all is fine. But changing the date in the interim requires, according to the Taz, a new set of shiva nekiim and tevilah before she is considered tehora. Which means that if you move up the date to within the week, there will be insufficient time for shiva nekiim before the chasunah.

(This was one of those halachos that didn't see much practical concern until people began pushing up chasunah dates to reschedule due to coronavirus restrictions.)

It's possible that they would decide here to rely on the other Acharonim and not follow the Taz due to the very extenuating circumstances that this entails.

amother

↑ Pumpkin ↓

Thu, Oct 28 2021, 12:51 pm

Sorry, cross-posted with your edit.

Dam chimud is a concern at the time that a woman makes up her mind to get married. If there is a change to the chosson in the interim or, according to the Taz, a change in chasunah date, there is a renewed concern for dam chimud.

Note the line in the article: "Chazal (Niddah 66a; YD 192:1-3) require that upon accepting a marriage proposal or setting a wedding date"

amother

↑ Pumpkin

Thu, Oct 28 2021, 1:02 pm

It's not either/or. It's based on when the woman makes up her mind to get married, and the setting of a new date is considered a new תבעוה לינשא.

There are often minor flip-flops in chasunah dates that don't matter according to this shitta. For example, you made up your mind to get married on X date but then the hall realized that there was a problem and you have to change it. As long as this is sufficiently in advance that you haven't yet started counting shiva nekiim, it doesn't matter. That shiva nekiim that you'll count will take care of all dam niddah / dam chimud situations that have occurred up until then.

It only becomes an issue if you change the chasunah date either mid-shiva nekiim or after they're completed.

(IIRC, there is a leniency if the nisuin/consummation of the marriage immediately follow the kallah's agreement, there is no concern for dam chimud due to the fast timeline, which might mean that it's not a problem for anyone except maybe Chava?)

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Oct 28 2021, 2:34 pm

I never learned these halachos, so thank you! I'm not seeing that from the Taz though, do you mind pointing out just where?

https://www.sefaria.org/Turei_.....eh_De'ah.192.3

It looks from here that as long as preparations have begun, and 7 full days were counted, there is no concern of a new Dam Chimud merely based on a change of date. It is only if there was a concern that the chasunah might not happen at all that a new count needs to happen.

Or am I misunderstanding?

(Sorry all for the diversion! This is why authors should generally have a doctor confirm accuracy of medical parts, and a Rav confirm accuracy of halachic issues!)

ETA: Seems to be as above based on the Ba'er Heiteiv to 192:3 and other meforshim to the Shulchan Aruch, that as long as there was no gap in time (or according to some, no significant gap in time) where the wedding date was up in the air, there is no need for a new recount. This is based on the presumption that Dam Chimud occurs when a wedding is first planned, or when the preparations for it begin. That's why you need a week. Either way, as long as preparations are continuous for the same wedding there should be no concern for new Dam Chimud.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Thu, Oct 28 2021, 5:37 pm

Revafe wrote:

Op could you please post the alternate/original version of the story where she gets married to someone else?

It's a highly truncated version. This comes after Part Two as posted earlier. (The story has more than doubled in length since then!)

Quote:

Two weeks, and two episodes, later, the agency returns with a new announcement: All of the girls will need to get married, on the advice of the Rabbinical board. Total chaos!

Two Rabbonim and their wives are brought in to match up the couples, and teach them what they needed to know. A mikvah is constructed in the basement.

Multiple assemblies are held explaining the system and counseling them individually.

During one of the assemblies, Chava feels another episode coming on. She stands up shakily and walks to the door. She manages to catch the eye of one of the bochurim and points to Eli, sitting a few rows forward. Thankfully he quickly grasps what's going on and goes over to call Eli.

She goes into the hallway and sits down near the wall, trembling.

Eli is prepared and breathes for her throughout the 6 minute episode.

Unfortunately, one of the lecturers comes into the hallway during this procedure, leading to some awkward questions.

Once the situation has been properly explained, he assures them that they will insist on a new doctor for the building - a blessing for all of them.

----

Chava ends up engaged to Levi, who isn't too disturbed by her medical history. "I know how to call for help," he tells her.

She doesn't end up having another episode. After a month, she disconnects the monitor and sticks it in the back of the closet.

She finally feels that she has made the transition from patient to person.

THE END!

amother

↑ Steelblue ↓

Sun, Oct 31 2021, 11:55 am

I feel so bad for Chava!
She has a super intense chuppas niddah!
It sounds like she saw her chosson at the chuppa and then not again.
It's one thing to be a niddah, but to not even be able to chat in peace? She is literally completely alone, there's no women's side to her wedding!
Also, I'd imagine that all of the guys in the apartment will figure that she got married once they see her cover her hair and if Eli is still sleeping with them, they'd for sure put two and two together.
Also, how does pushing up her wedding help the other kalla? If anything, if the other kalla can't wait, it would push her wedding away further? (I know it's all fiction, but still wondering)

amother

↑ OP ↓

Mon, Nov 01 2021, 2:21 pm

amother [ Steelblue ] wrote:

(Next installment is mostly blocked out, now just need to find time to write it all out. Daven for a smooth bedtime Wink

)

1. Not chatting in peace - yes, poor Chava! It will be addressed somewhat in the next part, and hopefully it will make everyone feel better about it.

2. Guys figuring out - yup, they all will. They all know who got married, and it doesn't take rocket science. Hopefully they have enough maturity and tact not to focus on it. It stinks, what can I say?

3. Pushing up wedding - they have to get married in groups of 3, so the whole group has to get pushed up together. Chava is the korban here. Maybe she should have gotten a choice, but there really wasn't another option.