S/O - Modern vs Modern Orthodox, let's break it down (again)

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 9:21 am

GreenEyes26 wrote:

Of course not. But the Chareidi community very much only cares about their version of halacha and Torah.

I'm trying to parse this. I don't know what it means. Maybe because I'm in the US so I use the term yeshivish. But I like my version (what does that even mean?) of halacha and Torah and have great respect for other communities. And if you would listen to the mareh mekomos of the shiurim I listen to you would find a tremendous spectrum of Torah, from chassidic to Lithuanian to MO and more.

5mom

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 9:23 am

This is relevant for understanding the divide between RW and MO ideas of daas Torah.

https://www.thelehrhaus.com/co.....mand/

Also, while Rav Kook had the kind of broad vision that saw religious significance in historical events, he was firmly charedi. (This despite the fact that the charedi establishment despised him.) He repeatedly turned down opportunities to work with rabbis of the Mizrahi movement, and the few times that he took public policy positions, they were almost always in line with the charedi platform. For example, he opposed giving women the vote. His worldview, mostly derived from chassidus, saw the holy in the profane, which overlapped with, but was not identical to, Modern Orthodox philosophy.

↑ Rosie89 ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 9:26 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Multiple MO people have said over the past few pages - as long as you keep shabbos you are MO, it doesn't matter if you don't believe in parts of the Torah or think Hashem is around or not.

And multiple other people have explained that those who don’t believe in parts of the Torah, don’t keep all halacha (and aren’t striving to), etc. are NOT MO—they just belong to the MO community (ie: attend their shuls and schools).

Perhaps there is a difference in opinion? But the people I know who identify as MO keep all halacha—they just don’t necessarily hold all the chumros that others might, or they might interpret halacha differently (like whether it is acceptable to wear pants or not).

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 9:31 am

Rosie89 wrote:

Actually up until an hour or two ago everyone seemed to agree that your observance isn't necessary as long as you keep shabbos.

There doesn't seem to be a clear answer - some posters clearly said whether someone is observant or not isn't important at all. If they call themselves MO, they are MO - as long as they keep shabbos.

And they think I'm nitpicking for trying to understand that MO people don't need to keep all halacha or believe in really big parts of the Torah and Mesorah.

It really doesn't feel like MO has a clear picture of who they are and what they stand for. There's so much conflict and the spectrum is so wide.

Can someone belong to both Open Orthodoxy and MO? What about Conservative an MO?

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 9:34 am

5mom wrote:

And I'm sure you'll find examples of the bolded which we don't have to belabor. But let me share this:
https://www.torchweb.org/torah.....d=391
Didn't they travel EY together to boost mitzvah observance?

↑ dancingqueen ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 9:38 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Multiple MO people have said over the past few pages - as long as you keep shabbos you are MO, it doesn't matter if you don't believe in parts of the Torah or think Hashem is around or not.

They said people who openly say that their community doesn't care about certain areas of halacha, is fine.

Please read the past few pages, specifically Fox's posts.

No. Someone said that keeping shabbos is the halachic indicator that their kashrut can be trusted. You extrapolated that to mean that to be MO means you only have to keep shabbos.

There is a range of observance in MO which seems to confuse people. But you know what, despite more rigid communal requirements about dress in more RW communities, I don’t doubt they have a range of observance in private too.

↑ simcha2 ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 9:49 am

LovesHashem wrote:

I am not here to talk about community. I am trying to reach understanding for myself. Please keep the thread on topic.

All frum communities have issues - this is not the point.

Think of it like this, it is very common on here for people to ask for recommendations for people who make cookies for simchas etc. These people are making in their home, without hashgacha.

I would never eat that. Because the halacha is that you can't be your own mashgiach if there is money involved.

I would never say the cookies are treif, but I also wouldn't consider them "kosher" in the full sense.

But would I say that someone who eats those cookies doesn't keep kosher? No. But I might think they are not careful about halacha in this area

But I would never say it makes them not frum. Or means that they don't keep shabbos. Or that they don't believe in Hashem or the Torah.

And if they had a psak from their rav saying it was OK to sell and buy homemade cookies, I wouldn't question their adherence to kashrus.

And even if they didn't I wouldn't say the whole yeshivish velt is illegitimate because it is widespread for people to sell and eat cookies made without hashgacha.

That would be a ridiculous overstep.

But somehow posters here think that 1) individual people's actions say something about an entire hashkafa 2) paskening differently means it is outside the bounds of halacha and 3) chumras are equivalent to halacha.

They are either misinformed or lacking in ahavas Yisrael.

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 10:03 am

dancingqueen wrote:

I explicitly asked what is considered MO, what the red lines were. If someone who outright said they don’t believe in tchiyas hameisim could be MO, if someone who doesn’t believe Hashem still is around can be MO, if someone believe the oral Torah isn’t true or uneccesary, etc

I was told if you keep shabbos, you are MO. None of these other things matter.

↑ simcha2 ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 10:07 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Where were you told that?

And again, you are extrapolating from the individual to the whole.

Did you know that there are yeshivish guys in prison for child molestation demanding glatt kosher food and a place to daven.

Does that mean that yeshivish hashkafa condones child molestation? That would be ridiculous. But this guy says he's yeshivish....

Last edited by simcha2 on Thu, Oct 14 2021, 10:11 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 10:08 am

simcha2 wrote:

So what makes a person not frum? Again, I specifically am asking what is considered MO, and was told your observance level doesn’t matter. Your beliefs don’t matter, as long as you keep shabbos. You can read a few pages back.

1) If the community accepts anyone in who has any haskfafah or believes in anything, what separates it from open orthodoxy?

That is my biggest question. What are the lines between being part of the MO community and calling yourself MO, and other groups? According to what other posters have said so far, it’s just shabbos. Multiple posters said you don’t need to even believe in the 13 ani maamins, which even imamother says you must believe in to join this website.

2) I never said that.
3) I never said that.

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 10:10 am

simcha2 wrote:

Where were you told that?

See pages 6-8.

I encourage anyone jumping in now to read the last pages clearly and then respond.

My question is what does MO hold of that separates it from Open Orthodoxy, Conservative, and Reform?

So far I’ve been told that all you have to do is keep shabbos but not believe anything or do other Halachos.

Others have said you must keep Halacha.

I’m getting a lot of conflicting answers here.

↑ BadTichelDay ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 10:11 am

LovesHashem wrote:

They do matter in terms of MO doctrine/hashkafa.
They do not matter when it comes to people going to MO shuls or schools or events.
MO accepts people who themselves are not necessarily MO.

Someone who doesn't believe in Hashem is an atheist or maybe agnostic. That is not MO.

Can this atheist/agnostic still go to a MO shul? Yes.
Can his/her children attend a MO school? Probably yes.
Does that mean MO equals atheism? No.

↑ essie14 ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 10:14 am

simcha2 wrote:

And the get refusers who only want mehadrin glatt food in prison.
And the chassidish white collar criminals who learn daf yomi in prison...
They can identify however they want, that doesn't make their hashkafic group condone their actions.

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 10:15 am

BadTichelDay wrote:

But others have said they consider these people MO

and due to the fact they are accepted fully in Shul, events, schools, etc, and they even call themselves MO.

If that’s the case, to an outsiders eye, does it make sense why people not MO think that not all MO people keep Halacha, and are generally wary and have no idea what to think about someone’s Halacha standards when they say they are MO.

If a poster says they are yeshivish or chassidish, I understand the range of halachic standards they probably keep. But if someone says they are MO for all I know they don’t keep Halacha at all or don’t believe God exists.

↑ LovesHashem ↓

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 10:17 am

simcha2 wrote:

Humans are humans. They are child molesters in every community. That’s not the point.

Again, our community comes out and as a whole doesn’t accept someone who openly does these things.

But your community does openly accept people who flaunt they don’t keep Halacha or don’t think the oral Torah has validity to it.

This creates confusion to an outsider what is an MO

singleagain

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 10:19 am

LovesHashem wrote:

I doubt these people would self-identify as MO but they wouldn't be kicked out of the MO shuls and schools