keeping a child home to babysit

↑ shalhevet ↓

Sat, Feb 23 2008, 5:00 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Chessed is bitul Torah?? oy oy what a sick world...

Well in that case we better close all the yeshivas and kolelim and send our husbands and sons to volunteer in hospitals instead. I already said the halacha is that a person stops learning only to do chessed that can't be done by someone else.

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I remember reading something on the topic. It said doing mitzvos or generally learning to apply principles learned in Torah irl is NOT bitul Torah.

There are time-bound mitzvos that a person has to stop learning to perform (shema, megilla etc) and there are mitzvos a person is obligated in that absolve him temporarily from limmud Torah (such as earning a living). Otherwise what you wrote doesn't make sense.

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Men who learn, even all day, but when at home misbehave, are just showing that to them there is the theory, the Torah, and the reality, quite different.

What has this got to do with anything else? Of course they should behave with good middos to other people.

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Acting like that with girls vs boys is just making this Torah/reality dichotomy go on. No one should be sacrificed to the family or whatever, but everyone should help. If boys helped too, there would be less work for girls and there would be a balance between helping others and pursuing their education.

Well, I have news for you. That the Torah gave different mitzvos/ roles to men and women. Sorry if you don't like it.

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I totally agree that for girls the priority is their family. But I think it's just the same for boys. They can express it in different ways, even a man who learns all day (if it doesn't exhaust the wife) contributes a lot by giving the children a very learned father and an example of the importance of learning. But saying a girl's education is less important?? quite not, be it in kollel circles (wife works), or in other circles (even if dh earns enough, you never know c'v what can happen).

The discussion here was not to permanently take an eight yr old girl out of school to help her mother at home, but for occasional emergencies for a girl to stay home and help. I hardly think keeping my dd home one day (which she made up) is going to have an impact on what kind of job she can get in a few years time.

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Why are WOMEN saying women are second best? if that's not brainwashing...

Huh?

↑ amother ↓

Sat, Feb 23 2008, 7:40 pm

mimivan wrote:

Why is it second best to take care of one's family?
Isn't that what being an akeres habayit is all about? And shouldn't we teach our daughters that this role is valuable?
Shalhevet meant occasionally...not every week!
I think there is a lot of overreaction on this issue, as if the girl was asked to drop out of school!

Yes, we should also teach our boys that their role as fathers is valuable. Being a father means taking care of a family. If it's okay to keep a girl home, it's okay to keep a boy home. I agree with the poster above - it's easy to see how some of the totally uninvolved husbands/fathers learned to be that way! Even as boys, they were taught that only girls do for family.

Mimisinger

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 12:31 am

suomynona wrote:

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Why are WOMEN saying women are second best? if that's not brainwashing...

That's assuming that education = best. Which it doesn't to me.

Boys can learn to help at home in other ways without missing a day of school. They can help during bein hazmanim.

I guess it's all in your priorities - for me, education is a HUGE priority and giving any ideas that it's not, for example taking off of school is not ok. At the same time, DH's father would take him out of school once a year to go skiing as a father/son day. What do you all think of this? He missed school, but it was due to enrichment, rather than taking care of little ones. Again, it's all your priorities.

As for boys learning to help at home as in bein hazmanim, give me a break. You think that helping during bein hazmanim will teach our boys to get involved at home? No way. Also, thinking that they will actually help during that time is also not going to happen. They have to see friends, you want to pamper them. Boys helping in the home should be an obligation for you and them, you're teaching them to be mensches. What's so wrong with asking your boys to help set or clear the table? Nothing imo.

↑ amother

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 12:38 am

de_goldy wrote:

I've been following this thread and cannot believe someone would take a FIFTH grader out of school to watch a younger child. She is a child herself!!

I agree! I don't leave my child home alone, I certainly wouldn't leave a child the same age home with a younger sibling! Isn't this why Child Protective Services steps in? What if there's an emergency?

I still don't get why boys learning is so much more important than their sisters, in any case. Education is important for all children. But no 5th grader should be responsible for an ill sibling, or a younger sibling at all, for that matter.

I really dislike when people turn their young girls into miniature mothers. It's better to cancel appointments or beg friends for help than to do that to a young girl.

↑ suomynona

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 1:25 am

Mimisinger wrote:

suomynona wrote:

Quote:

Why are WOMEN saying women are second best? if that's not brainwashing...

That's assuming that education = best. Which it doesn't to me.

Boys can learn to help at home in other ways without missing a day of school. They can help during bein hazmanim.

ok, first of all, I'm not talking about whether a child should be kept home to babysit, but I'm responding to the people who feel a boy and girl are equal in this regard and since girls don't have the same obligation, therefore it means they're second class.
In my house education was top priority when we were growing up. We were never pulled out of school to help like some of my friends were. I remember when there was a levaya in middle of the day when I was in 8th grade, and 1/2 my class was called home to babysit so their mothers could attend. If there was a class activity at night, it was understood that we were except from chores, unlike some of my friends.
While I might be quicker to pull my daughters out of school than my mother was, I am definitely influenced in my way of thinking from the way I grew up.

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As for boys learning to help at home as in bein hazmanim, give me a break. You think that helping during bein hazmanim will teach our boys to get involved at home? No way. Also, thinking that they will actually help during that time is also not going to happen. They have to see friends, you want to pamper them. Boys helping in the home should be an obligation for you and them, you're teaching them to be mensches. What's so wrong with asking your boys to help set or clear the table? Nothing imo.

Bein hazmanim was just one example because I remember my older brother helping before pesach and succos. But really it can be any time the boy is not learning. Most young boys are not learning 24/7 and of course they should be clearing the table. The past few years, its been my younger brother's job to set the table for shabbos.
From personal experience, I just don't see that being machshiv boys learning is a contradiction to teaching them to help. My older brother IS the kind of person who learns 24/7 but I am certain that he helps his wife, just because he's a mentch.
My husband does almost all the housework. His mother trained him and his brothers to help from the time they were little kids. And since learning torah is a top priority in my inlaw's family, I'm sure that they did it without pulling their boys out of school to help.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 2:00 am

Mimisinger wrote:

What's the contradiction? My sons help on erev Shabbos, help set and clear the table, help before yomtov. I would certainly expect them to help when they are older during bein hazemanim etc. That is exactly the point. That if they are needed (say erev Pesach) they need to help, and if they would otherwise be seeing friends there is no reason they shouldn't help at that time as much as their sisters. But, no, I will not educate them to close their gemorras to help.

TzenaRena

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 2:18 am

I guess I'll join shalhevet, suomynona and others who would occasionaly keep a girl home to help, but not a boy, unless an emergency.

My son goes on mivtzoyim during his free time on Erev Shabbos, and I could really use his help, but this is my sacrifice for those activities the Rebbe wants us to be involved in. For one hour , after he gets back, he does help, which is a big effort on his part to fit in, since he has to get to mikvah, mincha and Yeshiva for davening and seder.

Bein hazmanim, when my other son comes home from Yeshiva, he has a schedule to learn a good part of the day, but a few hours are set aside to help me with Pesach. Otherwise, he is exempted from helping the entire year, by default! Wink

creativemommyto3 ↓

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 3:03 am

shalhevet wrote:

YESHASettler wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

I think occasional (as long as it's really occasional) keeping a girl at home to help is fine. Not only that, but it also teaches them priorities that family and chessed come first. I wouldn't keep a boy away from learning Torah.

A while ago there was a thread about not having school on Fridays and I wondered why it was such a terrible thing to have a son home to help his mother prepare for Shabbat.

I'm sorry if this hijacks the thread but, why is teaching your sons that family and chessed should come first a bad thing? How is teaching your sons about chessed Bittul Torah?

Where does the Torah say that? The pirkei avos says that the world was built on three things, Torah, Avodah and Gemilus Chassadim. In between sedarim and on bein hazmanim all kollel men/yeshivah bochurim/children of both genders should be helping out at home! If you agree that a girl of a certain age can stay home then a boy of that same age can too.

A boy should learn that his family comes first and then the limud Torah. That is why I think that there is something wrong with the idea of the women taking over the burden of parnassa totally. A woman is not a maid. The attitude should be that my learning is important but if my family needs me then I am right there for them. Kol Yisrael Areivim ze la zeh.
The halacha is that you don't stop tinokot shel beit rabban (children learning Torah) learning even to build the Beis Hamikdash.

And yes, there are halachas what is bittul Torah and what isn't, and chessed is bittul Torah unless that person is the only one available to help.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 3:13 am

creativemommyto3 wrote:

Rambam, Hilchos Talmud Torah, chapter 3

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ג אין לך מצוה בכל המצוות כולן שהיא שקולה כנגד תלמוד תורה, אלא תלמוד תורה כנגד כל המצוות כולן--שהתלמוד מביא לידי מעשה. לפיכך התלמוד קודם למעשה, בכל מקום: [ד] היה לפניו עשיית מצוה ותלמוד תורה--אם אפשר למצוה להיעשות על ידי אחרים, לא יפסיק תלמודו; ואם לאו, יעשה המצוה ויחזור לתורתו.

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There is no mitzva among all the mitzvos as great as learning Torah, but learning Torah is equivalent to all the other mitzvos, since learning brings to deed. Therefore learning comes before the deed, and in any event: if he has the choice between doing a mitzva and learning Torah; if the mitzva can be done by others, he must not stop his learning, but if not- he should do the mitzva and return to his learning.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 3:25 am

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Halacha is sick? THAT sounds sick to me.

Halacha is BH not that, or I would have left the derech a long time ago. Read what I wrote after.

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Learning torah is not a boy's need. It's his obligation.

No one learns Torah all day and night.

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Boys can learn to help at home in other ways without missing a day of school. They can help during bein hazmanim.

No one should have to miss school to help at home. But if we say it’s ok for girls because they’re girls, it’s sick.

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That's assuming that education = best. Which it doesn't to me.

Wow, ok… but it is a very non Jewish idea. Jews always fought to be able to educate their children, even girls.
I hated school, but I realized I was lucky to get an education!

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I already said the halacha is that a person stops learning only to do chessed that can't be done by someone else.

If it means it’s always for girls to stay home, then I consider after some occurrences they really can’t miss anymore, so the boys need to stay home. Now, if you want to have him out of school during the chol hours, I can understand.

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Otherwise what you wrote doesn't make sense.

Ok, I’ll warn the rabbanim who wrote on the topic.

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Of course they should behave with good middos to other people.

A part of that is not dumping all the helping on your sis.

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Well, I have news for you. That the Torah gave different mitzvos/ roles to men and women. Sorry if you don't like it.

Errrr that’s what I’m saying. But the role of the woman is NOT to be second best. Different but equal, anyone?

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↑ creativemommyto3 ↓

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 3:26 am

ok, I here you. However, I think that erev shabbos a boy should be helping out for shabbos as much as the girls. Even if it is short things like putting his laundry in the laundry basket, putting it in the dryer,sweeping the floor ,putting toys away. It's also a matter of honoring his mother.

While what you are saying is true , but I feel that a man/boy can give 30 min to an hour a day to his wife/mother.My husband used to do four hours of cleaning for his mother on Friday mornings when he was home from Yeshiva. She did let them get out of helping other times if they were learning but only if they were already learning not just opening the sefer to get out of helping.

↑ shalhevet

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 4:13 am

creativemommyto3 wrote:

I would expect a boy to help erev Shabbos too, unless all 3 of these applied:
1. He's over bar mitzva.
2. He's genuinely using the time for learning.
3. I can manage without his help.

Things are not the same for a bachur and someone married. Gedolim did not emerge because their mothers were concerned that they sweep the house 'on principle', but because their mothers encouraged them to learn as much as possible.

↑ creativemommyto3 ↓

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 4:20 am

Actually, I think that even if all those things apply a boy can still put his clothing in his own drawer, put his clothes in the hamper, put his dish in the sink, put the tablecloth on the shabbos table etc.

I think a boy/man should know how to take care of certain things. When I was on bedrest it was very frustrating that the world needed to help me b/c my husband didnt know how to do certain things. He is not in kollel by the way but every minute that he does learn I do not ask him for any help b/c I know that his learning is precious . However, boys/men who are learning all day can be part of the chores in the house too. They can do 5 minute things like clearing the table and putting the dishes in the sink. That's the least they can do to ease the burden off the mother.