How come no one stopped the abuse?????

amother

↑ Coffee ↓

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 2:24 pm

amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:

If only one didn't have to be rich to have surgery.

Socialized medicine. Smile

Today the doctor said we needed a surgery for one of our kids.
Half an hour later the surgery was scheduled, for way before RH.
It's like we got VIP service from our healthcare and from the hospital.
DH spoke to someone in the US who said for sure we're going to be tight on cash because of the surgery. In reality it will cost us maybe $40 or so.
BH BH
May this surgery be the charm and be the last time this child needs surgery, ever.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 2:56 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Then something has to be figured out.
Like fir example not only rich people get to have hernia and appendix surgeries.
But being a surgeon is a prestigious job.

It's called taxes.

But honestly, I'm surprised. Here I'm hearing that Israel is so way ahead of the US and they pay for childcare and we don't (we now do, btw, which is a different conversation), yet reading some of these stories makes me question the whole socialist/government daycare model.

I don't know how much these women make as compared to other salaries, etc, but if raising the amount the get paid will make the quality of care better - how can that be a negative? And why is it not happening? I don't think you have a comparative situation in the US - in the frum community babysitters (the private ones) get paid quite nicely here. Makes you wonder how well socializing daycare actually works...

Here in the US they do pay childcare (it's according to income) and they pay quite the pretty penny, let me tell you. I have no idea if the quality of daycare is higher because of that - I don't send to one of those places so I'll let someone who does chime in here.

↑ banana123 ↓

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 3:45 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Well, first of all, the US has its own childcare abuse stories, and quite a wealth of them.

Second of all, from what I understood, this was a private daycare regardless. Meaning, parents were paying out of pocket, no government subsidy provided.

Third, it's not a negative to pay more money for better quality care, but the mindset is that "I'm already paying a lot, why should I pay more so that someone else should earn more? If she's not happy with the salary she can find a better-paying job. I can't pay her more, I also need the money."

And about taxes, we already have a 17% sales tax on just about everything.

amother

↑ Ruby ↓

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 3:49 pm

amother [ Purple ] wrote:

I didn't read the whole thread and I didn't watch the video. I'm just trying to understand. this is a babysitting/playgroup setting where parents send their kids, right? if the children are abused, don't they cry every morning not to go? don't they display signs of distress when they are home? were there no signs? did ALL the parents just ignore the signs?
what's the story here?

No. Most kids don't react like that unless there is heavy abuse. The common abuse like withholding food, water, yelling, pushing, ignoring etc - doesn't do that necessarily.

↑ banana123 ↓

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 3:56 pm

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

I wasn't a bad metapelet but sometimes kids did have bruises and scratches.

Not from me but if you are watching 11 kids that are 2 years old and you happen to be on the other side of the room or doing something else - it only takes 2 seconds for one kid to scratch another and I simply couldn't get there in time.

Kids DON'T display abuse signs since it's subtle abuse.

You couldn't have done anything to prevent those bruises and scratches. You could've been the best metapelet and it still would've happened.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 4:08 pm

banana123 wrote:

The frum community here in the US pays more - way more - than other communities do for childcare. So I was just wondering - and I think this is a legitimate question - if there is a correlation between the higher pay here and the quality of care. Since so many people here brought it up.

If this was a private daycare - then why were they paying the moros so little? Here in the frum community in the US they don't get paid so little at all.

I don't know about the mindset, but I'm just going to say that I have never heard of daycare here - in my own frum little Chareidi community - and yes, the home of the kollel people - that starts at 7 and goes to 4 or 5 (or later).

In general the setup sounds very different here, so I was just wondering out loud...

I wasn't addressing childcare abuse, and I wasn't addressing the general US population. I'm talking only about the cost of childcare in the frum community in the US.

↑ banana123 ↓

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 4:20 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I think sometimes there is a correlation between quality and cost, but not always. High quality care depends on a lot of factors, not the least of which is the ratio of children to caregivers, and the amount of space the facility has per child.

I'm not an expert on Ramle prices, but I'd guess that parents paid around 2000-2800 shekels per month. Possibly more, possibly less. Much of the pricing depends on locality. Now, that's not such a huge sum, if parents are each earning 8-10k per month, but adding to it will make it a more significant chunk of the take-home salary. As to what the metaplot themselves earn, I'd guess it's around 5-6k each month - but remember, for very long hours and very little time off. So where does the rest go? Property tax, rent or mortgage for the facility, taxes, etc. That's part of why it's so location-dependent: in areas where property costs less and property taxes are less, childcare can also cost less.

I also don't know how the tax system works in the US, but if your providers are working on the books, then they may not be taking home such a high salary as you think. It'll definitely be more than if they were taking less money from parents, but not necessarily a high sum in their bank account.

Here, 7-5 is not rare at all, and is even fairly common. Most common is 7:30-4/4:30. But if you go private and the children are very young, then you can very very often find something that will go to 5 and will agree to let you drop your child off from 7.

I have never paid for (or sent to) childcare in the US, and you've made me equally curious as to how it works over there. Smile

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 4:30 pm

banana123 wrote:

Which boils down to cost.

banana123 wrote:

I'm not an expert on Ramle prices, but I'd guess that parents paid around 2000-2800 shekels per month. Possibly more, possibly less. Much of the pricing depends on locality. Now, that's not such a huge sum, if parents are each earning 8-10k per month, but adding to it will make it a more significant chunk of the take-home salary. As to what the metaplot themselves earn, I'd guess it's around 5-6k each month - but remember, for very long hours and very little time off. So where does the rest go? Property tax, rent or mortgage for the facility, taxes, etc. That's part of why it's so location-dependent: in areas where property costs less and property taxes are less, childcare can also cost less.

I also don't know how the tax system works in the US, but if your providers are working on the books, then they may not be taking home such a high salary as you think. It'll definitely be more than if they were taking less money from parents, but not necessarily a high sum in their bank account.

Not everyone pays taxes here, period. It's a graduated tax system and many frum families actually pay no federal taxes at all (because of child tax credits). But still, in the frum community babysitters get paid quite nicely, even if you factor in taxes.

banana123 wrote:

Here, 7-5 is not rare at all, and is even fairly common. Most common is 7:30-4/4:30. But if you go private and the children are very young, then you can very very often find something that will go to 5 and will agree to let you drop your child off from 7.

I have never paid for (or sent to) childcare in the US, and you've made me equally curious as to how it works over there. Smile

This is why, IMO, every time there is a conversation here about mothers working, you'll see the Israeli mothers chime in that everyone they know works, and the American mothers are horrified. The culture here is very different.

If you are curious how childcare here works, it's very community dependent, but at least where I live they have both informal groups and larger, more institutionalized groups - being partially paid for either by the employer or the US government - depending on where, how etc. they are structured. I don't think any - that I know of - start before 9 though, and they rarely go past 4.

ETA: I think one of the things that some daycare do right here - at least when I still had small children - was that they break up the day. You have one daycare worker in the AM and a different one in the PM, so it's not crazy hours and no-one gets burned out. At least in theory.

amother

↑ Coffee ↓

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 4:41 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Believe it or not where I live there are female construction workers. They don’t do the heavy duty type of construction but they stand in the sun all day with a construction vests and construction hats holding signs that say STOP or SLOW on either side. Or monitoring traffic at construction sight traffic lights. Etc.
Here it’s definitely for both genders.

And believe it or not, there are male daycare workers.

That doesn't mean the exceptions will become the norm, just because you've decided it should be so.

dancingqueen ↓

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 7:02 pm

There was another thread recently about the costs of preschool, and the Israeli imas were gloating about how cheap it is. But I saw that I pay a lot more than the Lakewood/Brooklyn imas as well. I do think you get what you pay for to some extent.
Re safety: many daycares here also have cameras parents can access through an app on their phone, as well as small student teacher ratios, ability to come check in during the day, and a lot of accountability. I’ve been fortunate to never send an infant to daycare due to various factors, but I don’t consider it unsafe here.

Also re: abuse. Older kids are more susceptible to other kinds of abuse. So being verbal isn’t a fix for everything unfortunately. Crying

And as others said, unfortunately lots of abuse happens at homes. Not necessarily by the mother, but by other relatives, mothers boyfriends. It’s really heartbreaking.

amother

Papaya

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 9:00 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

I’m not deciding anything but taking care of children needs to become more prestigious.

I have a housekeeper that comes daily and I don’t let her watch my kids.
But some people really have no choice and that’s unfortunate.

Unfortunate? Some people choose to have hired help. That's their choice, and its not a new thing - women have had governesses and the like for hundreds of years. I have a full time nanny, and my kids love her, and so do I. She is part of my family. If I couldn't have a nanny, I wouldn't have had children.

↑ ora_43 ↓

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 1:51 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Republican values are very conservative. Mothers stay home and watch kids, fathers going to work. And as much as you may hear otherwise, the US is still a fairly conservative country in that respect.

There's a bit of a difference between "I value women staying home" and "I think women shouldn't be allowed to work."

The first could fit comfortably into the Christian-right branch of the republican party. The second goes against every major tenet of conservative philosophy.

The "sexist" part is the part where it's specifically the mother's job to stay home, to the point where she shouldn't be allowed to do anything else. If someone came on here and said "my husband said I'm not allowed to work, because I'm the woman and that means childcare is my job," imagine the reactions.