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-> Parenting our children
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banana123
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 Fri, Aug 14 2020, 2:10 am
| AmGold wrote: | didn't read the entire thread so not sure if this was brought up.
someone here mentioned that the parents requested that cameras are put in. does that mean that they suspected something? why didn't they follow up on looking at these cameras and someone came across it by accident only? |
Last year there was a huge daycare abuse scandal, which prompted the passage of the "camera law." After that it became mandatory to install cameras and apparently one of the parents wanted the reassurance enough to volunteer to install them, and asked permission to do so. Nothing suspicious about that.
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amother
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 2:28 am
| ora_43 wrote: | There's a bit of a difference between "I value women staying home" and "I think women shouldn't be allowed to work."
The first could fit comfortably into the Christian-right branch of the republican party. The second goes against every major tenet of conservative philosophy.
The "sexist" part is the part where it's specifically the mother's job to stay home, to the point where she shouldn't be allowed to do anything else. If someone came on here and said "my husband said I'm not allowed to work, because I'm the woman and that means childcare is my job," imagine the reactions. |
I value children receiving optimal care from a consistent caregiver.
I don't care if that caregiver is mom, dad, grandma, grandpa, or a babysitter who watches a family's children until they are teens.
I believe that society would be healthier (even if not wealthier) if more families could live on one income and allow the second parent (whichever they choose) to stay home and care for the children. Second best would be to allow parents to work from home, which is still better than daycare for the kids, but not as good as a parent who is free to take care of the kids without other worries.
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amother
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 5:31 am
| ora_43 wrote: | Practically speaking, there's a huge gap in the logic here:
Daycare isn't safe, because a random group of women is likely to abuse babies.
So babies should stay home. With their mothers.
Who are also random women.
*
"Daycare workers" aren't a separate species. If women abuse kids, then daycare isn't safe but home isn't safe either. If the overwhelming majority of women don't abuse kids, then the majority of daycares are safe. |
The logic is that a woman is more likely to abuse some random kid whom she has no feelings for, than her own kid whom she loves. Dont you think?
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amother
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 5:35 am
| amother [ Black ] wrote: | | The logic is that a woman is more likely to abuse some random kid whom she has no feelings for, than her own kid whom she loves. Dont you think? |
Normal women don't abuse anyone. Sick, twisted people who abuse children are just as likely to abuse their own, if not more.
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amother
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 6:06 am
| banana123 wrote: | | Last year there was a huge daycare abuse scandal, which prompted the passage of the "camera law." After that it became mandatory to install cameras and apparently one of the parents wanted the reassurance enough to volunteer to install them, and asked permission to do so. Nothing suspicious about that. |
I remember that. I was working in a maon next door. I saw the women being arrested.
Alot of the people mistreating kids were also chareidi. One of them was a grandmother of many many kids and grandchildren. Very frum. She was the most lying two faced coworker who I ever worked with.
Don't think "Oh she's frum/chareidi so of course she's good." "She a grandmother of 30 grandchildren - she's not the type to abuse kids".
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banana123
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 6:19 am
| amother [ Tangerine ] wrote: | | Normal women don't abuse anyone. Sick, twisted people who abuse children are just as likely to abuse their own, if not more. |
Also, at a daycare she has access to many more children than if she were just taking care of her own children.
And the conditions at daycare centers are not very appealing to high quality caregivers, so unless you have this burning passion to work in a daycare and an enormous love for children, and boundless patience, you're not likely to work in a daycare long-term. So you end up with a nice chunk of long-term daycare workers who are not really people who anyone wants to leave their children with. Even if 70% of daycare workers are amazing, loving, caring, and put everything they have into the children (and I do believe that to be the case), that's still 30% who aren't, which translates to a whole lot of abused children.
A woman who abuses or kills her own children but doesn't work in childcare usually isn't abusing or killing more than a handful of children over her entire lifespan. A daycare worker can have 15 or more children in her care each year, so if she works in the field and is abusive for 20 years, it adds up to hundreds of abused children, and probably a handful of dead children as well.
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amother
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 6:22 am
| amother [ Black ] wrote: | | The logic is that a woman is more likely to abuse some random kid whom she has no feelings for, than her own kid whom she loves. Dont you think? |
I would assume so. But from experience I know that not every mother is loving.
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amother
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 6:22 am
the vast majority of mothers do not abuse their children (while there are exceptions to the rule) -- it is not a contest: abuse is abuse and must be stopped whenever and wherever found obviously.
when there is an institutionalized system with vulnerable populations and staff with minimum pay, minimal training, and high turnover, like in some nursing homes and seemingly in some maons, there must be strict objective accountable oversight to prevent the minority of staff who would treat children etc abusively R"L.
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amother
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 6:24 am
| amother [ Tangerine ] wrote: | | Normal women don't abuse anyone. Sick, twisted people who abuse children are just as likely to abuse their own, if not more. |
A lot of the people are just apathetic. The chiloni girls straight out of high school who smoke and do drugs and just want some money - and wouldn't abuse their own kid. They don't look at it as abuse, more like neglect to allow 10 babies to cry alone in a room for an hour.
Then there was me - also there, exhausted from waking up at 5:30 AM. Haven't had a chance to even pee in the past hour, forget eating lunch!
I've been working with no break, running from feeding baby after baby by hand (20minutes x 6 is over an hour sitting and spooning food into babies mouths leaning over, hurting my back, in middle running over cuz another kid threw up and there's still 2 or 3 babies to go crying their eyes out since they want the food now but I can't FEED 6 babies at once!)
Changing them. Do you know what it's like when a baby throws up, needs to be fully bathed and changed. Who watches the other 5 babies? Then I put the baby back down and pick up another to change and behind me the baby who threw up throws up a second time, all over her clothing. 2 other babies nearby are swimming in the throw up. (YUCK!) Now I need to bathe and change 3 more babies and I can't do anything since I'm still changing someone else. My coworkers had been watching 12 babies alone for the past 25 minutes as I'm changing and doing all this.
Then we do the feeding all over again. Another hour of being hunched over, not having a moment to eat, breathe, use the bathroom since other babies are waiting to be fed. Most of the other metapelets give each child one bowl. Some kids are bigger, they are still hungry and cry when they are removed from the seat. I take the time to give my babies extra bowls. I spoon them food until they shake their heads, or give other signs that they are full. This takes much longer.
Some need bottles made in addition to their food. The bottles can't be made around the children, hot water, it's illegal so I ask my coworker again to watch 12 babies as I take 10 minutes to get pumped milk from the freezer in the kitchen. I don't remember the names of the children so I go back and ask her. I can't find the milk. I ask the kitchen worker to help me. The milk need to defrost. I should of defrosted it 30 minutes ago but I am a substitute and I'm not familiar with the babies schedules. Meanwhile the 2 children who need bottles are screaming. I wish my coworker would of known to tell me 30 minutes ago they needed milk to be defrosted. I need to check on the milk defrosting in the kitchen. Every time I leave I leave my coworker with 12 babies. What if one needs to be changed? She goes to the changing room with her baby turned leaving 11 babies half unattended.
A redhead baby was crying that day non stop. He didn't know me. His face was red in pain. My coworker was familiar with him but she didn't want an extra kid. So he cried all day. The menehelet of the branch had her day off. I didn't know what to do. How can I let a baby cry all day? My coworker says he's difficult and his parents are too busy to care.
Finally they go to sleep. Maybe I can actually PEE! But after about 15 minutes the redhead wakes up screaming. I remember that day. I'm so exhausted. Hungry. I just met these babies this morning. They aren't familiar with me and don't want me to rock them. I've been working from 7am to 12:30 without stop. My coworker says "This happens every day - they don't know how to sleep - you need to let them scream. He's been screaming all day anyway.
And that day I was too exhausted to argue very much. What could I do? Watch him play on the floor alone for 2 hours? As if he hasn't been screaming there all day too. Lose my break? My coworker hs 2 of her own babies screaming to for next 2 hours of the break more or less. My heart breaks. But I'm tired. These aren't my group I don't have a responsibility. But I do. But what's the point if this happens every day? What's the point if I work myself harder to give them one day of slightly less screaming? They would be sad on the floor too. Maybe they'll sleep a little bit. So I let them scream.
And they screamed.
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amother
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 6:26 am
| amother [ Slateblue ] wrote: | the vast majority of mothers do not abuse their children (while there are exceptions to the rule) -- it is not a contest abuse is abuse and must be stopped whenever and wherever found obviously.
when there is an institutionalized system with vulnerable populations and staff with minimum pay, minimal training, and high turnover, like in some nursing homes and seemingly in some maons, there must be strict objective accountable oversight to prevent the minority of staff who would treat children etc abusively R"L. |
Exactly. That is why children are safer at home.
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sneakermom
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 7:06 am
In an environment of abuse very often it’s not only the kids that are afraid of the abuser.
Abusers abuse everyone. Either by behaving so exemplary that if anyone noticed anything they think or everyone else would think they’re crazy.
Or by intimidation. Showing everyone who’s boss and scaring everyone into silence.
Also the amother describing the conditions of these places is making my stomach turn.
I thought children were precious. How do we come to treat them like cattle?
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amother
Gray
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 7:16 am
I watched the video and while it was not nice, I've seen worse in public places in the United States where parents are allowed to spank their kids. In many states schools are allowed to use corporal punishment where a kid has to bend over and is hit on the butt with a wooden paddle usually 3 times. These Israeli kids were hit once with a towel, flip flop, or had a package of wipes thrown at them; it's mean but not as bad.
I'm not at all defending the Israeli gan, but I don't see how someone who witnessed spankings can be shocked by what happened in the video.
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banana123
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 7:21 am
| amother [ Gray ] wrote: | I watched the video and while it was not nice, I've seen worse in public places in the United States where parents are allowed to spank their kids. In many states schools are allowed to use corporal punishment where a kid has to bend over and is hit on the butt with a wooden paddle usually 3 times. These Israeli kids were hit once with a towel, flip flop, or had a package of wipes thrown at them; it's mean but not as bad.
I'm not at all defending the Israeli gan, but I don't see how someone who witnessed spankings can be shocked by what happened in the video. |
I beg to differ. This is a compilation of very short video clips, out of hours and hours of footage.
The police have said that there were over 200 incidents recorded, and I'm not sure they've finished going through all the footage.
You say they were hit once - no, it's far more than once.
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amother
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 7:23 am
| amother [ Ruby ] wrote: | A lot of the people are just apathetic. The chiloni girls straight out of high school who smoke and do drugs and just want some money - and wouldn't abuse their own kid. They don't look at it as abuse, more like neglect to allow 10 babies to cry alone in a room for an hour.
Then there was me - also there, exhausted from waking up at 5:30 AM. Haven't had a chance to even pee in the past hour, forget eating lunch!
I've been working with no break, running from feeding baby after baby by hand (20minutes x 6 is over an hour sitting and spooning food into babies mouths leaning over, hurting my back, in middle running over cuz another kid threw up and there's still 2 or 3 babies to go crying their eyes out since they want the food now but I can't FEED 6 babies at once!)
Changing them. Do you know what it's like when a baby throws up, needs to be fully bathed and changed. Who watches the other 5 babies? Then I put the baby back down and pick up another to change and behind me the baby who threw up throws up a second time, all over her clothing. 2 other babies nearby are swimming in the throw up. (YUCK!) Now I need to bathe and change 3 more babies and I can't do anything since I'm still changing someone else. My coworkers had been watching 12 babies alone for the past 25 minutes as I'm changing and doing all this.
Then we do the feeding all over again. Another hour of being hunched over, not having a moment to eat, breathe, use the bathroom since other babies are waiting to be fed. Most of the other metapelets give each child one bowl. Some kids are bigger, they are still hungry and cry when they are removed from the seat. I take the time to give my babies extra bowls. I spoon them food until they shake their heads, or give other signs that they are full. This takes much longer.
Some need bottles made in addition to their food. The bottles can't be made around the children, hot water, it's illegal so I ask my coworker again to watch 12 babies as I take 10 minutes to get pumped milk from the freezer in the kitchen. I don't remember the names of the children so I go back and ask her. I can't find the milk. I ask the kitchen worker to help me. The milk need to defrost. I should of defrosted it 30 minutes ago but I am a substitute and I'm not familiar with the babies schedules. Meanwhile the 2 children who need bottles are screaming. I wish my coworker would of known to tell me 30 minutes ago they needed milk to be defrosted. I need to check on the milk defrosting in the kitchen. Every time I leave I leave my coworker with 12 babies. What if one needs to be changed? She goes to the changing room with her baby turned leaving 11 babies half unattended.
A redhead baby was crying that day non stop. He didn't know me. His face was red in pain. My coworker was familiar with him but she didn't want an extra kid. So he cried all day. The menehelet of the branch had her day off. I didn't know what to do. How can I let a baby cry all day? My coworker says he's difficult and his parents are too busy to care.
Finally they go to sleep. Maybe I can actually PEE! But after about 15 minutes the redhead wakes up screaming. I remember that day. I'm so exhausted. Hungry. I just met these babies this morning. They aren't familiar with me and don't want me to rock them. I've been working from 7am to 12:30 without stop. My coworker says "This happens every day - they don't know how to sleep - you need to let them scream. He's been screaming all day anyway.
And that day I was too exhausted to argue very much. What could I do? Watch him play on the floor alone for 2 hours? As if he hasn't been screaming there all day too. Lose my break? My coworker hs 2 of her own babies screaming to for next 2 hours of the break more or less. My heart breaks. But I'm tired. These aren't my group I don't have a responsibility. But I do. But what's the point if this happens every day? What's the point if I work myself harder to give them one day of slightly less screaming? They would be sad on the floor too. Maybe they'll sleep a little bit. So I let them scream.
And they screamed. |
Terrible horrible situation you were put into! You did the best you could.
Why isn't there more staff? 2 caregivers for 15 babies??? Young babies need a ratio of almost 1:1! Infants need hands on care for most of the day, they aren't toddlers who toddle around and find something to play with.
I'm heartbroken that this is happening on a daily basis. It needs change.
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banana123
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 8:13 am
| amother [ Maroon ] wrote: | Terrible horrible situation you were put into! You did the best you could.
Why isn't there more staff? 2 caregivers for 15 babies??? Young babies need a ratio of almost 1:1! Infants need hands on care for most of the day, they aren't toddlers who toddle around and find something to play with.
I'm heartbroken that this is happening on a daily basis. It needs change. |
The teken for that age is 1:6. And still there is a shortage, especially a shortage of good metaplot.
Which is why I don't think Israeli maonot can ever be high quality as the research defines it - that would require a ratio of 1:3 or so, which is not happening unless you hire a private sitter.
תקינת כ"א ותפוסת ילדים במעונות יום.
כיתה גיל מס' ילדים מקסימאלי יחס מבוגר שטח הכיתה שטח פר ילד
תינוקות 6-15 חד' 15 1:6 50 מ' 3.3 מ'
פעוטות צעירים 16-24 חד' 22 1:9 70 מ' 3 מ'
פעוטות בוגרים 25-36 חד' 27 1:11 70 מ' 2.6 מ'
גן 3-4 שנים 35 2:35
https://www.hiba.org.il/%D7%99......html
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amother
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 8:20 am
| amother [ Maroon ] wrote: | Terrible horrible situation you were put into! You did the best you could.
Why isn't there more staff? 2 caregivers for 15 babies??? Young babies need a ratio of almost 1:1! Infants need hands on care for most of the day, they aren't toddlers who toddle around and find something to play with.
I'm heartbroken that this is happening on a daily basis. It needs change. |
The ratio is 1:6. 2-3 groups per room. So if one of us doing something the other can watch the rest of the babies.
It's easier in a room with 3 groups. There's less pressure if one needs to go to the bathroom or something. In a room with 2 groups with small babies it's much more difficult.
If I need to go prepare bottles I'm unavailable completely as you are not allowed to take babies into that area legally since there is boiling water there. If the other metapelet is changing one of her kids, or doing something else everyone else is ignored for that period of time.
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FranticFrummie
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 9:18 am
| amother [ Gray ] wrote: | I watched the video and while it was not nice, I've seen worse in public places in the United States where parents are allowed to spank their kids. In many states schools are allowed to use corporal punishment where a kid has to bend over and is hit on the butt with a wooden paddle usually 3 times. These Israeli kids were hit once with a towel, flip flop, or had a package of wipes thrown at them; it's mean but not as bad.
I'm not at all defending the Israeli gan, but I don't see how someone who witnessed spankings can be shocked by what happened in the video. |
I don't know of a single school in America that allows spanking. At least not in public schools. You cannot put one finger on a child without facing a lawsuit. The teachers are at the mercy of the students sometimes.
I'm not a fan of spanking, but a one time potch for chinuk is not the same. If it teaches a toddler not to run away from you or go into the street, then sometimes that's what it takes.
That is NOT what is happening in these videos. These kids are constantly being low level abused and neglected, to the point where they have developed "learned helplessness". They don't even react, not because they don't feel pain, but because they know that it won't do them any good to cry. No one will rescue them, nobody cares, so they just give up. They have broken spirits.
A healthy, happy child can be more willful and difficult, and that means more work for everyone. But that is part of raising a child, and that is what you sign up for when you work with kids.
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FranticFrummie
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 9:29 am
| Mommyg8 wrote: | | in the US - in the frum community babysitters (the private ones) get paid quite nicely here. |
In Israel, frum babysitters get paid very little. If I am with a very nice family with respectful and easy kids, I get 20 shekels an hour and a meal.
If I am with challenging kids and parents who won't lift a finger to help, I charge 40 shekels an hour. I don't get paid bus fare or transportation time either - and sometimes it's up to an hour each way.
I've had many families turn me down because "I can get a teenager to do it for cheaper." That's the bottom line. It is extremely rare for me to get anyone to agree to more than 30 shekels an hour.
Remember that I'm not just babysitting, I'm doing light housework, cooking, organizing, helping with homework, art projects, and a lot of other things. I am on the floor with them, directly involved at all times. I don't sit on the sofa and stare at my phone while the kids cry and fight with each other.
For comparison, the average dog walker gets 60 shekels an hour, and if they have strong arms they can walk 8 dogs or more at a time. You don't need to understand child development and psychology to walk a dog.
I love my work, and I don't want to do anything else. I fail to understand why my services are so little valued in Israeli society.
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tichellady
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 10:40 am
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Horrible. I can’t believe the ratio is 1:6. Even without abuse this doesn’t seem safe to me. Where I live the ratio is 1:3.
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tichellady
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 10:41 am
| FranticFrummie wrote: | In Israel, frum babysitters get paid very little. If I am with a very nice family with respectful and easy kids, I get 20 shekels an hour and a meal.
If I am with challenging kids and parents who won't lift a finger to help, I charge 40 shekels an hour. I don't get paid bus fare or transportation time either - and sometimes it's up to an hour each way.
I've had many families turn me down because "I can get a teenager to do it for cheaper." That's the bottom line. It is extremely rare for me to get anyone to agree to more than 30 shekels an hour.
Remember that I'm not just babysitting, I'm doing light housework, cooking, organizing, helping with homework, art projects, and a lot of other things. I am on the floor with them, directly involved at all times. I don't sit on the sofa and stare at my phone while the kids cry and fight with each other.
For comparison, the average dog walker gets 60 shekels an hour, and if they have strong arms they can walk 8 dogs or more at a time. You don't need to understand child development and psychology to walk a dog.
I love my work, and I don't want to do anything else. I fail to understand why my services are so little valued in Israeli society. |
That’s crazy. Where I live babysitters start at $20/hr.
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