To all those that said it’s not true last week..

SixOfWands

Tue, Apr 28 2020, 1:07 pm

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

the Columbia Er doctor could have commited suicide because of some inside story.

She may have spoken up about hospital protocal and was TERRIFIED.

THERE PLENTY OF VOLUNTEERS NURSES PUT UP IN HOTELS WHO SAT FOR WEEKS BUT WERE NOT ALLOWED TO WORK THE NYC HOSPITALS.

I heard Trump and Giuliani had her killed because of studies she had showing that hydroxychloroquinine doesn’t work.

And that she had inside information that Trump had Epstein killed.

For gosh sakes. Let the poor woman Rest In Peace. Don’t make up stories about her. It’s disgusting.

↑ Sunny Days ↓

Tue, Apr 28 2020, 1:12 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

I heard she ate a bat for lunch and was so disgusted by it, so she ——

(This is the 1st I hear about this...)

↑ chestnut ↓

Tue, Apr 28 2020, 4:37 pm

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

having overworked emergency workers when we had nurse volunteers living weeks in nyc hotels waiting (and never called up) to serve those hospitals is wrong.
Having a 1000 bed ship in the harbor never put to normal use is making fun of people and frontline workers to say the least.
It doesnt matter if people believe the gross negligence or not. It matters if people who have the power to do what they have to do about the gross negligence.

I agree with you about the ship. I never heard the volunteer claim, can you post proof of that please?

amother

Black ↓

Tue, Apr 28 2020, 5:06 pm

imasoftov wrote:

Tragic, but how is it relevant to this thread?

Actually she said how people came in with ambulance and just died. there was nothing they could do for them.
May be be just a bit relevant:

Quote:

She had no history of mental illness, he said. But when they last spoke, she told him how excruciating it was to have to continually watch contagion patients die, including some even before they could be taken from the ambulance.

↑ imasoftov ↓

Tue, Apr 28 2020, 6:48 pm

amother [ Black ] wrote:

Actually she said how people came in with ambulance and just died. there was nothing they could do for them.

Quote:

How is that relevant to this thread? Did it say hospitals neglected patients by leaving them in the ambulance to die?

cbsp ↓

Tue, Apr 28 2020, 8:10 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

My feelings? No, I am concerned about massive chillul Hashem. If true, this would have to be approached carefully.

If true, would you advise any other community to approach carefully?

For the record I think this is a humanitarian issue, not specifically a Jewish issue. So why the need to tread carefully? Why should it become a chillul Hashem - unless someone is already predisposed to seeing the community negatively?

Furthermore, in the interest of saving even one life (and one can be called a murderer for failing to expose actions that can be life threatening) then why wouldn't such an exposé be treated seriously and investigated to the nth degree - and those reporting it be hailed as heroes?

(I know we're in golus so I'm not asking from a hashkafic perspective. But I don't think - even from a hashkafic perspective - one has to stay silent when people are dying needlessly.)

amother

Pink ↓

Tue, Apr 28 2020, 9:33 pm

amother [ Black ] wrote:

No, but a number of posters said that hatzala/chèvre kadisha said they got people back wearing the same clothes they were dropped off in 😢

In the interests of accuracy and prevention of this happening again, any hatzala member or chevra kadisha member who observed this should do the responsible thing and report this using his name, pt name and date. It should be easy then for relevant parties to check the records and see who the pts drs and nurses were who perpetrated this neglect.
If we avoid sensationalism and hearsay and stick to facts that can be proven than we have a chance at finding alleged abusers and bringing them to justice. Anonymous voicenotes and videos avail us nothing except induce panic

↑ ora_43 ↓

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 12:30 am

cbsp wrote:

If true, would you advise any other community to approach carefully?

Of course.

Accusers: Hospital staff are murdering patients through neglect! Most patients are dying of dehydration, not covid!

Hospitals: Death rates are no higher here than anywhere else, so obviously what you're saying is false. How dare you slander us when we're on the front lines, risking our safety to help you?

The public: Man, can you believe those people from (Whatevergroup)? Such ingrates.

vs.

Accusers: We have reports of 100 cases of neglect in the following two hospitals. We would like the following policies put into place to protect patients.

Hospitals: Death rates are no higher here than anywhere else, so obviously what you're saying is false. How dare you slander us when we're on the front lines, risking our safety to help you?

Accusers: Allow us to share with you the massive collection of testimonials from patients, families, and healthcare workers we've put together, together with data showing poorer outcomes in these particular hospitals.

Hospitals: ....uhhh... We deny everything.

The public: Wow, that sounds bad. Someone should do something.

amother

↑ Pink ↓

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 12:45 am

ora_43 wrote:

If these reports and testimonials are backed by hard data than I am sure heads will roll... as they should. However most of the family and anonymous voicenotes, letters and videos I have seen and heard come from a place of severe pain and despair but IMO misplace the blame on specific facilities and staff instead of on the unfortunate cause of this which is a globalpandemic of a brand new virus.
All hospitals were understaffed due to the sudden influx of patients, causing all patients to be given less then perfect attention in all facilities in the New York area
All hospitals were trying various treatment modalities since there is no history or evidence based practice to back any specific one
Certain facilities attract a huge number of frum patients so they are most often named in the outcries of suffering from frum families.
Let us try and obtain hard data to ascertain if any individuals abused patients. These individuals should be made to pay. But hearsay and anonymous and emotional second and third hand accusations weaken the cause. If you cry wolf too many times than your true outcry will be lost in the shuffle

↑ ora_43 ↓

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 2:14 am

amother [ Pink ] wrote:

But hearsay and anonymous and emotional second and third hand accusations weaken the cause. If you cry wolf too many times than your true outcry will be lost in the shuffle

I completely agree. That's why I'm saying that whoever believes there's a real problem should gather data. Otherwise they might not be taken seriously. And they might not get a second chance to prove their claim.

Some of the claims can't be backed by data, by nature. Like what the person in the video OP posted was saying. She wasn't accusing hospital staff of neglecting patients in the sense of not feeding them, she was saying that staff didn't take important steps to avoid infection, didn't provide appropriate supervision, didn't use largely-experimental treatments and didn't make a serious effort to bring back patients who coded. (which is a weird mix of horrible things and things that make complete sense, but that's a different story)

IOW she's saying nurses at a handful of hospitals just don't care and aren't trying, which is awful - but even if true, might not have actually changed any outcomes in a measurable way.

So in a case like that I think first-hand testimonials, or even second-hand (from patients' families), are still important even without hard data.

Basically, there needs to be as much data as would be expected to exist, depending on the claim.

If someone is claiming that the majority of covid patients at a certain hospital are actually dying of dehydration, they'd better be prepared to back that up with data showing that the death rate is significantly higher at whatever hospital they're accusing than elsewhere. If they're claiming that hospital staff didn't make any effort to keep patients off ventilators, it would really help to have first-hand testimony from staff and/or medical records.

OTOH, if they're claiming that patients were thirsty and afraid and nobody was available to help them, testimonials from patients and their families are enough to prove that. If they're focusing on how contact with relatives (who can supervise medical care) is one of a patient's basic rights, without making specific accusations, then they don't need hard data. Etc.

amother

↑ Pink ↓

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 2:17 am

ora_43 wrote:

Unfortunately being thirsty and alone and afraid and possible unsafe existed in every single facility during the first frightful shocking weeks of the pandemic (that goes for patients and staff)

↑ ora_43 ↓

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 2:25 am

amother [ Pink ] wrote:

Unfortunately being thirsty and alone and afraid and possible unsafe existed in every single facility during the first frightful shocking weeks of the pandemic (that goes for patients and staff)

Yes. If this were the claim, it wouldn't be reasonable to demand that staff be punished. But OTOH it would be reasonable to demand that the state and/or federal government come up with ways to make things go more smoothly next time.

↑ imasoftov

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 3:48 am

amother [ Black ] wrote:

No, but a number of posters said that hatzala/chèvre kadisha said they got people back wearing the same clothes they were dropped off in 😢

Her father said she saw "contagion patients die, including some even before they could be taken from the ambulance". If someone died before being taken from the ambulance, why would one expect to find them to be returned in hospital gowns?

amother

↑ Pink ↓

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 5:07 am

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

Hatzala didn't want to take to the hospital a few members of my family, convincing them they weren't in such a bad state and they didn't need the hospital. Guess what? They all went to the hospital by other means and had to stay several days. One of them actually died.

Hatzala members saw the state of the emergency rooms, how there were suddenly so so so many patients that the staff could not keep up; how drs were faced with a brand new illness.and were struggling to figure out treatments without research to back it up; how staff struggled with lack of PPE, even Purell dispensers were running dry.
I dont know if it was a hatzala.leadership decision or personal decision by members on their own, but while it made sense to seek out hospitals that had fewer patients and transport patients there instead of to the busier places, it must have been a tremendous responsibility or a lack of responsibility to counsel sick patients to stay home . I shudder to think of the many that died at home because I hope it was not because they stayed home based on advice of an EMT or because somebody prescribed meds at home without knowing their full history and that the meds prove dangerous to them. And yet, I do feel that Hatzala, just like hospital staff tried to do the best that they could in precedented panic inducing circumstances and they are to be commended even if there were some bad outcomes