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-> Simcha Section
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Lechatchila Ariber
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 Wed, Dec 26 2007, 3:55 pm
clarissa, how exactly did this conversation start?
if I recall correctly a poster mentioned something she did with her kids and didn't want them to see and then you and louch jumped on her case and started mocking her.
so what kind of responses did you expect? Crayon and others were responding to the attack with you and louche started. not the other way around
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Crayon210
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 3:56 pm
| Clarissa wrote: | | Crayon210 wrote: | | Clarissa wrote: | | Crayon210 wrote: | Just because someone will be exposed to garbage in the street doesn't mean that you have to introduce it to your children...  |
I'm all for privacy and modesty and whatever you like, but I don't consider married people kissing to be garbage on the street. Just because a couple wants to maintain an atmosphere of privacy in terms of their affection, doesn't mean that have to act like all acts of physical affection between other people is dirty. That's where I think one crosses the line from being tsnius to being uptight, and I don't think it transmits a great message to children. I'm not saying one should applaud if one passes a couple going at it like dogs in heat. I'm saying that it's not shocking or appalling that some people kiss when they marry, and one doesn't need to present it as such, in order to teach good values to the children. Why can't it be, "this is what they do, this is not what we do." |
It is shocking and appalling to me that some people kiss under the chuppah. It was shocking to the Netziv as well. I believe he walked out of a wedding where the bride and groom kissed under the chuppah.
I also don't hold of this "this is what they do, this is not what we do" idea. Tznius needs to be presented to children as an absolute. You can't tell a kid that it's okay for the neighbor to go mixed swimming but not okay for him. That sounds silly. Why is it okay for him and not for me?
Public displays of affection between married people are not appropriate. I do not think the answer is that some people do it, we don't. The answer is that we have the Torah which teaches us tznius, and unfortunately, some people weren't so fortunate to be able to learn about how beautiful tznius is. |
It is shocking and appalling to you that people kiss under the chuppah, but you know that many people do. |
How does that make it less appalling?
Do you know of a rav who permits this?
| Quote: | | You want to tell your kids that everything is an absolute -- how do you do that? You tell them that Jews don't go mixed swimming? Not so. You tell them that observant Jews don't go mixed swimming? Also not so. Tnius is not absolute, in terms of the guidelines. It is something that is fluid, and affected by the times and the culture. |
1. It is against halacha to go mixed swimming. The observant Jews who do so are doing the wrong thing. Period.
2. You are right, some of tznius varies based on PSAK (not on "times and culture"). Do you know of a rav who permits public displays of affection?
| Quote: | | As far as the question of why is it okay for him and not for me, you don't think your children will ask that? They will always come across people who live differently and do differently, even within groups of Jews, and even within groups of frum Jews. This question will be asked unless you keep your kids locked in the house with the shades down. Prepare yourself to answer it, and hope that your children feel comfortable enough to ask you, rather than exploring on their own without your guidance. Trust me, saying "this is bad and this is good," won't be enough, because they'll see good Jews doing the same things that may appall you. |
It's okay for him because he is doing the wrong thing.
In cases where there is LEGITIMATE difference of opinion (let's say a little Lubavitch girl who sees a woman from another group wearing a tichel outside the house)-there you can explain that sometimes people have difference in tznius, and this is what we do, etc.
I do not think that kissing in public is the same thing.
| Quote: | | Read the threads on the Intimacy Board, here and elsewhere. It seems that there are a lot of people who never learned to be comfortable with any form of physical affection, possibly because of their parents' attitude and what was transmitted. Don't think that standing under the chuppah magically transforms a completely sheltered person into an adult who can appreciate married love? |
I don't think it has to do with being sheltered, it has to do with problems with appropriate education all along.
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Clarissa
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 3:56 pm
| Clarissa wrote: | | I'm afraid I'm wondering the same thing. How exactly (and why) will you protect your children from ever seeing people kiss? I see people constantly kissing hello and goodbye when I'm out and about, and just expressing affection -- what's the great harm if they see a newly married couple kiss? I'm assuming they didn't start furiously making out and rolling around on the floor, of course. |
This is what I said in response to her covering of her childrens' eyes. I don't consider it mockery at all.
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Lechatchila Ariber
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 4:02 pm
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actually clarissa your post was in agreement with louche's post which was mocking, and then you went on to join in with some inappropriate jokes about orthodox jews...did you not?
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Clarissa
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 4:05 pm
| Crayon210 wrote: | | How does that make it less appalling? |
I don't consider it appalling at all. So I guess we disagree.
| Crayon210 wrote: | | Do you know of a rav who permits this? |
Yes.
| Crayon210 wrote: | | 1. It is against halacha to go mixed swimming. The observant Jews who do so are doing the wrong thing. Period. |
I disagree.
| Crayon210 wrote: | | 2. You are right, some of tznius varies based on PSAK (not on "times and culture"). Do you know of a rav who permits public displays of affection? |
Yes
| Crayon210 wrote: | | It's okay for him because he is doing the wrong thing. |
Well, I hope your children accept what you say with utter trust and not a lot of complex thought and analysis. Where I come from, kids need a little more than that, at times.
| Crayon210 wrote: | | In cases where there is LEGITIMATE difference of opinion (let's say a little Lubavitch girl who sees a woman from another group wearing a tichel outside the house)-there you can explain that sometimes people have difference in tznius, and this is what we do, etc. |
Where is this magical place where this is the only time one would need to explain different customs?
| Crayon210 wrote: | | I do not think that kissing in public is the same thing. |
Yes, I'm guessing that you don't.
| Crayon210 wrote: | | I don't think it has to do with being sheltered, it has to do with problems with appropriate education all along. |
I'm surprised that you don't see the connection with being completely sheltered and getting an education about life and love.
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Clarissa
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 4:08 pm
| EstiS wrote: | | actually clarissa your post was in agreement with louche's post which was mocking, and then you went on to join in with some inappropriate jokes about orthodox jews...did you not? |
I was in agreement with Louche that covering the childrens' eyes is unnecessary, but I fail to see any mockery in my post, as I said before. Read it again.
I retold the joke the way that I'd heard it. And I was told this joke several times by Orthodox Jews (as frum as you, I'd wager) who are able to laugh at some aspects of their own lives as frum Jews.
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Crayon210
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 4:09 pm
| Clarissa wrote: | | Crayon210 wrote: | | Do you know of a rav who permits this? |
Yes. |
Who?
| Quote: | | Crayon210 wrote: | | 1. It is against halacha to go mixed swimming. The observant Jews who do so are doing the wrong thing. Period. |
I disagree. |
Excuse me?!?!?!?!?!
| Quote: | | Crayon210 wrote: | | 2. You are right, some of tznius varies based on PSAK (not on "times and culture"). Do you know of a rav who permits public displays of affection? |
Yes |
Who?
| Quote: | | Crayon210 wrote: | | It's okay for him because he is doing the wrong thing. |
Well, I hope your children accept what you say with utter trust and not a lot of complex thought and analysis. Where I come from, kids need a little more than that, at times. |
I don't really understand you. If someone is doing something wrong, then they're doing something wrong. If a child sees a Jewish person driving on Shabbos, they're doing the wrong thing. It would be a lie to say otherwise. I don't understand why you would need complex thought and analysis to explain that to a child.
| Quote: | | Crayon210 wrote: | | In cases where there is LEGITIMATE difference of opinion (let's say a little Lubavitch girl who sees a woman from another group wearing a tichel outside the house)-there you can explain that sometimes people have difference in tznius, and this is what we do, etc. |
Where is this magical place where this is the only time one would need to explain different customs? |
I was giving an example. 
| Quote: | | Crayon210 wrote: | | I don't think it has to do with being sheltered, it has to do with problems with appropriate education all along. |
I'm surprised that you don't see the connection with being completely sheltered and getting an education about life and love. |
Because there are plenty of people who grow up sheltered but manage to have wonderful marriages, and there are plenty of people who get all kinds of educations and wind up pregnant and addicted to drugs.
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Maya
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 4:12 pm
| Clarissa wrote: | | That's fine for you, but you do know that there are times (whether at a special occasion of some kind, on the street or in a movie, if they see any) when they'll see people kissing, right? |
I'm guessing that Supermommy's kids won't be seeing much movies, at least until they're old enough to get married, or will be married.
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gryp
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 4:14 pm
Well, as I was saying....
| Quote: | | This thread will only go downhill now, with people taking sides. It puts people on the defensive and causes an unpleasant atmosphere on the forum. |
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Clarissa
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 4:16 pm
I don't ever give names of rabbis here to use as authorities to back me up. Frankly, I think this custom is one of the most negative aspects of these boards.
I personally have no problem with mixed swimming.
As far as explaining things to children, I don't think there are simple answers. I know plenty of families where kids have gone in all different directions as they grew, and the parents were shocked. I don't know how old your children are, but I think kids have very inquisitive minds, have wide-open eyes and need more.
I guess we also disagree about the effects parents (and their discomfort about all things physical and s*xual) can have on kids, and your example of this is that some kids who are taught all go off the path to doom and destruction. Sure, you can use any example of horrible outcomes as an example of why such openness doesn't matter. It doesn't mean that parents completely shielding their children from all things physical won't have kids that have real issues when it comes to intimacy. The fact is that I have all non-frum friends, and I very rarely hear of marital difficulties the likes of which I hear from frum women, in terms of the bedroom.
You can respond to this with a few more eyerolls.
Last edited by Clarissa on Wed, Dec 26 2007, 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 4:17 pm
clarissa I don't know about where you live, but where I live (and no its not in any sheltered only frum only jewish living place) its not an everyday occurance to see people kissing in the street.
If we do happen to come across it and if I notice my kids seeing it then yes I will distract them and get them to look elsewhere.
We do get inappropriate bill boards and my kids think they are stupid and know not to look.
What's so difficult to understand that supermommy wants to educate her kids in the same way?
It may not be your lifestyle but it is hers.
If you want to challenge her in this then start challenging every other facet of yidishkeit where people keep something you don't.
Do you think that is the right thing to do?
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amother
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 4:17 pm
| momtomor wrote: | | Clarissa wrote: | | That's fine for you, but you do know that there are times (whether at a special occasion of some kind, on the street or in a movie, if they see any) when they'll see people kissing, right? |
I'm guessing that Supermommy's kids won't be seeing much movies, at least until they're old enough to get married, or will be married. |
or sneak out to movies to find out what their mother has been covering their eyes from all those years....
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supermommy
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 4:23 pm
lol GR you were right and I saw it coming to but who can resist a defense?
I'm not offended. To each his own and I still feel I did the right thing for my children.
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lamplighter
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 4:37 pm
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clarissa, I dont think it's fair to make a connection between a sheltered life and someone's bedroom life. Wheras these woman you know seem to be telling you about their bedroom live (why they would or why u'd be comfortable to hear or discuss it, I have no idea).I think it would very presumptious to say that you know what goes on in others' intimate life. you don't know what their not telling you. and the issue of intimacy an pleasure etc. is not a frum not frum one it is an issue tat affects many women worldwide. is it better to learn this off a tv? or a movie? or pple off the street? as far as I think it's best to learn this with ur husband and if unnecessary a private therapist.
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batya_d
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 4:43 pm
| Clarissa wrote: | I don't ever give names of rabbis here to use as authorities to back me up. Frankly, I think this custom is one of the most negative aspects of these boards.
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How so? I have no reason to believe you didn't get this psak, but it strengthens your argument if you can back it up with the source.
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Maya
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 4:44 pm
| la456 wrote: | | clarissa, I dont think it's fair to make a connection between a sheltered life and someone's bedroom life. Wheras these woman you know seem to be telling you about their bedroom live (why they would or why u'd be comfortable to hear or discuss it, I have no idea).I think it would very presumptious to say that you know what goes on in others' intimate life. you don't know what their not telling you. and the issue of intimacy an pleasure etc. is not a frum not frum one it is an issue tat affects many women worldwide. is it better to learn this off a tv? or a movie? or pple off the street? as far as I think it's best to learn this with ur husband and if unnecessary a private therapist. |
If people are as sheltered as supermommy's kids, (and I'm not taking any side on this as I am still a bit confused myself) then I doubt that their husbands would know any better about the pleasure. I think that the only way they would be knowing about it is from movies, unless they have a wonderful chosson/kallah teacher.
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gryp
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 4:50 pm
| Quote: | | The fact is that I have all non-frum friends, and I very rarely hear of marital difficulties the likes of which I hear from from women, in terms of the bedroom. |
You're only hearing the complaints.  Remember the whole other world out there with no complaints.
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Clarissa
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 4:56 pm
| amother wrote: | clarissa I don't know about where you live, but where I live (and no its not in any sheltered only frum only jewish living place) its not an everyday occurance to see people kissing in the street.
If we do happen to come across it and if I notice my kids seeing it then yes I will distract them and get them to look elsewhere.
We do get inappropriate bill boards and my kids think they are stupid and know not to look.
What's so difficult to understand that supermommy wants to educate her kids in the same way?
It may not be your lifestyle but it is hers.
If you want to challenge her in this then start challenging every other facet of yidishkeit where people keep something you don't.
Do you think that is the right thing to do? |
I'm not challenging yiddishkeit. I'm challenging the notion that anything outside of what this person does or that person learned must be wrong. Jewish observance is not so simple.
I see people kissing. And sometimes people see my husband and me kissing and hugging.
She can educate her kids any way she wants. But this is a public message board and different points of view will be aired.
Last edited by Clarissa on Wed, Dec 26 2007, 7:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Clarissa
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 5:01 pm
| la456 wrote: | | clarissa, I dont think it's fair to make a connection between a sheltered life and someone's bedroom life. Wheras these woman you know seem to be telling you about their bedroom live (why they would or why u'd be comfortable to hear or discuss it, I have no idea).I think it would very presumptious to say that you know what goes on in others' intimate life. you don't know what their not telling you. and the issue of intimacy an pleasure etc. is not a frum not frum one it is an issue tat affects many women worldwide. is it better to learn this off a tv? or a movie? or pple off the street? as far as I think it's best to learn this with ur husband and if unnecessary a private therapist. |
You really don't see any connection between somebody being completely sheltered and having a certain comfort level (or lack thereof) in the bedroom?
Yes, my friends and I have always been pretty open about our lives, while respecting some aspects of privacy. This doesn't make me uncomfortable. I feel pretty confident that I know which friends of mine have major problems in that department. As far as pleasure and lack of pleasure, it's a little easier for people who have been pretty well-informed about what married love is about. I've seen posts on message boards of women, and men, who have no idea how to express physical love, because they weren't taught, their parents weren't comfortable discussing it, and their friends weren't open.
I don't know why you extrapolate from my posts that I think somebody should actually be learning about love and s*x from tv and movies. My point was that people who are completely sheltered from ever seeing any physical affection might not be comfortable in that area, as they'll think of physical love of something that has a forbidden, and possibly negative, connotation.
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Clarissa
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Wed, Dec 26 2007, 5:04 pm
| batya_d wrote: | | How so? I have no reason to believe you didn't get this psak, but it strengthens your argument if you can back it up with the source. |
I know people, myself included, who were not expressly forbidden to touch or kiss in certain public situations, including weddings.
As far as this rav business, I am totally sick of people hitting eachother over the head here with their different points of view, using quotes from rabbis as ammo. Everyone can find somebody to back their point of view, and there's always somebody else to claim that that person is not a respected figure of authority.
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