Pesach programs cancelations are going up

Amarante ↓

Thu, Mar 05 2020, 10:09 pm

If a program cancelled and refused to refund ALL my money, I would do a chargeback on my credit card. That is different than someone deciding they didn't want to risk traveling to a program in which case whatever the cancellation policy stated would be applicable - e.g. deposits are generally not refundable for cancellation by the individual for any reason.

An airline is not responsible for consequential damages - e.g. if a flight is delayed or cancelled and you miss your cruise ship leaving port for example. If the weather is bad and they can't fly, they will fly your out in the next day or so and you aren't compensated for your convenience although airlines will generally provide people with hotel rooms and food vouchers.

However, if an airline cancels completely they don't get to keep your payment for the ticket.

amother

Maroon ↓

Fri, Mar 06 2020, 9:29 am

Amarante wrote:

A chargeback is no guarantee of you getting your money back. You have to prove your case, and if they submit your signed contract (as long as it was worded properly), you have no case.

These programs incur risks with arranging something so time sensitive way in advance. They, in turn, past some of the risk on to their customers. The customers agree to that in signing the contract. It's perfectly legal, especially in the luxury vacation line of business. It's something to consider when making reservations.

This situation is a lose-lose situation for both. Both the programs and the people lose money. The programs aren't running away with your money. It's being used to offset the huge loss they're incurring. In situations like these, why do you believe the programs should be the ones shouldering the entire loss? A huge loss like this can really set them back for some time. They've already put in countless of hours of work to arrange all this for you, and all they have to show for it is a loss.

↑ Amarante ↓

Fri, Mar 06 2020, 9:44 am

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

You would have to show me language which states that someone can keep a deposit if the vendor cancels.

I have done chargebacks a few times and the credit card company will often apply reasonable consumer protection. For example, I bought a chest on line and the door fell off after a few weeks. The credit card company gave me a complete refund even though the vendor had language in which I had to make a claim and ship it back within 20 days. The credit card company didn’t feel that was an enforceable provision for a consumer transaction.

I doubt a credit card company would allow the vendor to keep the money but maybe I am wrong. In any event, I would still file a chargeback

ETA. And between a consumer and a business it is the business that assumes certain risks just as they are the ones who make a profit. I assume we aren’t talking about a communal enterprise. If I had planned to spend a holiday with family and friends and it didn’t occur for reasons like this, I would certainly expect to share any costs which had been spent so everyone wa# equal. In a commercial setting, is the vendor going to show me his accounts so that he proves how much he has expended. A business takes a risk and a consumer takes a risk. A consumer risk is that I can’t attend a program that I paid for which is still happening.

A business takes the risk that they have to cancel. What if a business cancels because they don’t have enough guests. Should they still be entitled to keep my deposit because they are losing money they spent to organize an event?

amother

↑ Maroon ↓

Fri, Mar 06 2020, 9:57 am

Amarante wrote:

A purchase operates differently than a signed contract. There's a reason they make you sign one. And when you file a chargeback in cases like these, the credit card companies ask you (or the vendor) if there were contracts signed. If one was, they request a copy.

I'm curious though, why you would feel that you have no share in such unforeseeable situation, especially after you signed a contract? This situation is not in any way due to any wrong from the programs end of the stick. They've worked many months for this, and instituted a plan to somewhat protect themselves in case of something unexpected like this. I wonder what the halacha would be in such a situation.

(ETA - I'm not connected to any programs in any which way, nor do I go to any myself. I'm just a bit surprised at reactions where people shrug their shoulders at what they agree to when they find out it doesn't serve them well. If someone has problems with such a provision, they shouldn't sign up for the programs in the first place.)

amother

↑ Maroon ↓

Fri, Mar 06 2020, 10:09 am

Amarante wrote:

Y

ETA. And between a consumer and a business it is the business that assumes certain risks just as they are the ones who make a profit. I assume we aren’t talking about a communal enterprise. If I had planned to spend a holiday with family and friends and it didn’t occur for reasons like this, I would certainly expect to share any costs which had been spent so everyone wa# equal. In a commercial setting, is the vendor going to show me his accounts so that he proves how much he has expended. A business takes a risk and a consumer takes a risk. A consumer risk is that I can’t attend a program that I paid for which is still happening.

A business takes the risk that they have to cancel. What if a business cancels because they don’t have enough guests. Should they still be entitled to keep my deposit because they are losing money they spent to organize an event?

It's very different when a business cancels because of a problem on their end - I.e. not enough guests, etc., or when they're forced to cancel due to forces out of their control. Usually contracts are worded in this fashion, hence why it will all come down to the situation on hand and how the contract is worded.

And in the business world, especially in the luxury line, it's not unusual for business to setup a shared loss in case of a disaster scenario. They accept small risks upon themselves, but protect themselves in larger risks. It's 100% legal. No one forced the customer to sign the agreement. Don't sign if you feel this is wrong.

amother

Orange

Fri, Mar 06 2020, 10:16 am

Don't programs get insurance to protect around these scenarios or am I way off?

Also I'd be surprised if most of the places the program was relying on didn't offer a full refund. I was supposed to fly somewhere in Asia ( not China) and my work cancelled, and the airlines and the hotels gave 100% refund, including deposits. I'd assume in Italy (could be wrong) that hotels and airlines are permitting people to cancel vacations. There may be some staff still expecting to get paid for work already done but most of the vendors should reasonably offer a refund so that cost should not be passed on.

↑ Amarante ↓

Fri, Mar 06 2020, 10:17 am

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

I think it is a business relationship in which the vendor thought they would be making a profit and therefore assumed commercial risks. They weren’t doing it as a soup kitchen charity presumably.

Again, I would have to see exactly what the language is.

Also jist because a vendor inserts a provision, it doesn’t make it enforceable. And legally the bill of sale for my chest is theoretically as much a contract as any other contract although the UCC would also be operative.

My point is that things aren’t as simple especially since, in my experience, credit card companies generally are in the side of the customer which is why vendors hate chargebacks. With my chest, the language of the “contract” which was drafted by the vendor wasn’t enforced because the credit card company determined it wasn’t reasonable.

In any event, I would definitely do a chargeback. As between me and a vendor who has cancelled a program and still wants to keep my money, why shouldn’t I. If I chose not to attend or I couldn’t attend, I wouldn’t attempt to do so.

amother

↑ Maroon

Fri, Mar 06 2020, 10:23 am

Amarante wrote:

Again, you're comparing a signed contract with a transactional purchase that has a general unsigned 'contract'. It's two different things, and they're enforced very differently when it comes to the law.

What I'm trying to understand is why sign a contract with a company who has a business model you don't agree with. If you don't agree with the way a business operates, then find a different one who has one that you do agree with. You can't sign with a company, and then say after the fact, that you expect to be serviced with your expectations. They stated theirs, and you agreed.

I would think Halacha wouldn't work in your favor either on this, (anyone to care to chime in on this).

↑ Amarante

Fri, Mar 06 2020, 10:47 am

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

You are defining contract narrowly. A contract is just an agreement between two parties. It can be oral or written and can incorporate language. Terms of sale are just as much contractual provisions as clauses in a written document. People think that contracts are only the formal documents signed by two parties but that’s nit legally accurate.

A company can’t adapt a business model, especially with a consumer, that contains provisions which are unenforceable for various reasons.

The law of contracts especially when combined with consumer protection and the UCC is beyond the scope of this thread. But to state it most simply, I would file a chargeback under circumstances in which a vendor cancelled and kept my money and if the credit card company decided against me, I would then have to accept the outcome or file a lawsuit just as a vendor either accepts the chargeback or files a lawsuit against the purchaser c