To tell brother not to bring muktzeh

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amother

OP ↓

Sat, Oct 05 2019, 8:51 pm

My brother is otd when he comes with his kids for shabbos he drives over (middle of Boro park) My son and his son are bff's but are growing up. Today he came with muktzeh toy and refused to put it away. My son knows he was being mechallel shobbos. Help what do I do?

amother

Yellow ↓

Sat, Oct 05 2019, 8:59 pm

I would not tolerate chillul shabbos in my home. Your kids come before your brother.

nicole81 ↓

Sat, Oct 05 2019, 9:22 pm

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

I would not tolerate chillul shabbos in my home. Your kids come before your brother.

Agreed.

But perhaps more info can help inform next steps... How old are the kids? Who refused to put the toy away, the boy or your brother?

lavenderchimes

Sat, Oct 05 2019, 9:29 pm

Have a talk with your brother about respecting Your home.

imasinger

Sat, Oct 05 2019, 9:37 pm

If that's going to be an ongoing issue, why not plan to meet on other times than Shabbos/YT?

amother

cornflower

Sat, Oct 05 2019, 9:39 pm

Most of my extended family dont keep shabbos, and although my baby is still too younge to understand that, ive decided long before marriage, id not be comfortable with family coming for shabbos/yomim tovim and breaking shabbos in my house. It is not a good example from a religious perspective and in my opinion disrespectful all together.I remember one chag, my parents had also hosted my cousins. And besides for not religious relatives driving, while the children were all outside, one of the kids was playing with his phone, and a religious little one was freaking out and saying no no its yomtov you can't do that! And the reply was, "im not religious I can do it" and the younge (4 year old) boy from the religious fam then commented to his mom "I want to be like them, they are not religious and can do What they want"- it was awakward and jarring. For small children I see it as especially complicated. But I never spend chag or shabbos with fam that will break it publicly. (I cant say if they do or dont take out a phone once everyone goes to their rooms). I believe in family time but just doesnt need to be shabbos/yt with not religious relatives. Sundays and national holidays will do

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sat, Oct 05 2019, 9:58 pm

What would you do if they pop in?

amother

Floralwhite

Sat, Oct 05 2019, 10:00 pm

Are his kids frum? (If yes, I wouldn't agree to have him over just for the fact that he's driving them. Even he is respectful in your home.)

amother

Papaya ↓

Sat, Oct 05 2019, 10:03 pm

Lots of good advice here -- I would make time to talk to him in advance and tell him as warmly as possible that you love him and am so happy he comes over it is so important to you. Then I would gently broach the reality that while you love and accept him as he is there are rules in your home and particularly for your children that must be agreed to in advance. If its too hard for him for whatever the reason then he can come on different days. Just like you would not allow smoking and someone would not just light up in your home. Its genuine because a smoker can smoke and can smoke elsewhere but not in your home. Thats mutually respectful.
Hope the conversation goes well.

amother

↑ Yellow ↓

Sat, Oct 05 2019, 10:23 pm

You need to tell him calmly and respectfully that you cannot have chilul shabbos in your home & if he can't adhere to that, he cannot come on shabbos and yom tov.
I've had guests that have awful language which I don't allow to come anymore, chilul shabbos is worse.
Are the kids Frum and he's driving them on shabbos and letting them play with muktza toys? Does their mom know about this?

amother

↑ Papaya ↓

Sat, Oct 05 2019, 10:26 pm

truthfully I would call him sooner rather than later because you are definitely not going to tolerate that in your home with your children -- what he did was not ok bringing in a muktzeh toy refusing to put it away and your child being mechalel shabbos.

how old are his and your kids?

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sat, Oct 05 2019, 10:43 pm

About 6/7 year olds. I told the little boy please put in your pocket. You can play after shabbos. He didn't want to. Their mother is also not frum. He takes them to shul and brings them on shabbos so they can "experience" shabbos but he himself is totally off the derech

amother

↑ Papaya ↓

Sat, Oct 05 2019, 11:23 pm

so thats a bit different than what I was picturing - thanks for the clarification.

It sounds like your brother was not there for that conversation which is why you were the one telling your nephew? or he was there and didn't handle it?

either way I still vote to have a calm warm convo with your brother perhaps along the lines of we love having you come... we need to agree on some ground rules before next Shabbos/YT....when in our home and with our kids we need to be on the same page regarding shabbos observance and things like not having muktzeh toys brought in etc...

I mean he knows what the "rules" are and hopefully you have a good enough relationship to just talk to him about it...did he not know about the toy or what?

Anyway he will need to tell his kids the rules at your home. some people don't allow food out of the kitchen, jumping on the furniture, locked doors, etc.
your home and family are shabbos observant and in your home on those days there is no (fill in the blanks).
can be matter of fact, not emotional.
plus what if other kids were there too? even if you could or would accept this for your child which you wouldn't you also won't want to have a compounded situation. there is no other choice accept to address it now. unless you just want to tell him not to come on Shabbos or YT.

bottom line -- your house your rules

sounds challenging and you sound like an amazing sister and aunt and mother. this is a tough one. I sure hope things get better.

amother

↑ OP ↓

Sun, Oct 06 2019, 4:12 am

Thank you. This is good advice. I tell him my rules, just like jumping on furniture etc. Thank you

amother

↑ Papaya ↓

Sun, Oct 06 2019, 9:02 am

Glad you found it helpful.
It can help to "role play" and decharge an understandably emotionally charged issue like observance by substituting a non charged issue, like the example of jumping on furniture.
Can help to deal with it in a calm matter of fact focused way. The way one would as kids get older and go for playdates even with different holdings in observance, like some carry on shabbos some don't...though I wouldn't confuse that with the issue here which is black and white.

I would also talk to DS and alleviate any guilt and explain how fortunate he is to have proper chinuch (like not be a tinok shenishba) and be able to know what is right and do the right thing while telling him he can count on you to back him up and make it easier by explaining the rules in your home. And that he can talk to you about anything and you can listen nonjudgementally while providing guidance.
I would set the stage for further conversations with DS regarding the situation overall.

Also there is an issue if your nephew is not listening to you and respecting your rules and no matter what the subject you would have to address this with the child as well as the parent given the level of importance etc.

Its a tough situation.

hugs and hatzlocha

princessleah ↓

Sun, Oct 06 2019, 9:12 am

Can you clarify something— you are allowing him to drive over on Shabbat and then upset about a muktzah toy?
He may be getting mixed messages

↑ nicole81 ↓

Sun, Oct 06 2019, 9:24 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

This makes a big difference. Tell him your house rules, which include no toys with electronic parts on shabbat. And speak with your brother to see if he can help support this by preempting such issues before they leave the car. If he's on board with you, great! And communicate with him right away when you see other possible issues coming up. If not, then I personally would end these visits due to the lack of respect for how you run your household. But at the very least, as time goes by you're going to have to reevaluate when these visits take place.

cnc

Sun, Oct 06 2019, 9:27 am

princessleah wrote:

Can you clarify something— you are allowing him to drive over on Shabbat and then upset about a muktzah toy?
He may be getting mixed messages

Once they’re on her territory, they should respect her rules especially when it comes at the expense of her young children’s chinuch.

Perhaps her children are not aware that their uncle comes by car.

amother

Burlywood

Sun, Oct 06 2019, 9:31 am

We have a cousin who drives on shabbos. Years ago my mother asked her not to show up in a car on shabbos. She compromised. She parks a few blocks away and walks the rest of the way.

amother

↑ Yellow ↓

Sun, Oct 06 2019, 9:52 am

My neighbors daughter nebach drives on shabbos. She parks 2 blocks away at the shopping center's parking lot and walks over.

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