Share your opinion without bashing please...

amother

↑ Coffee ↓

Wed, May 29 2019, 8:13 am

DVOM wrote:

We are happy in our new neighborhood, though I think there is always going to be a part of me that pines to live in Flagstaff, Arizona or Mooresville, Alabama or Ocracoke, NC and homeschool my barefooted children until they turn 18.

The main differences in our new neighborhood? It's a working crowd, actually pretty wealthy (this according to my husband), but you wouldn't really know it to look at it. Houses are older, simpler. Bar mitzvah's are simple, lovely but simple..

That actually makes sense. MY DH recently told me that he thinks when the person paying and the person receiving the service are different people people pay more. When it's your parents footing the bill you often don't feel that same to pinch pennies and when your child says that this is how much it costs to do new construction, or make a bar mitzvah in their neighborhood the parents are more likely to "trust" them leading to things being pricier.

I think a lot of kollel people receive either support or "help" from parents which can lead to visible stuff being more ostentatious.

I think there's also a pressure because of tznius. Parents want their kids to dress tznius and its harder to find tznius clothing. They are therefore willing to pay more for clothing if they can find tznius clothing that will look good on their daughters. Thats why this trend of frum stores selling not tznius clothing confuses me. It's like the prices and "style" stayed but the whole original point of providing tznius clothing that will make the girls feel good about themselves is no longer.

↑ southernbubby ↓

Wed, May 29 2019, 8:47 am

mochamix18 wrote:

Firebrick my heart broke at the part at the part of you turning down hosting the shiur 😞. I’m not sure if it will give you chizuk, but if the opportunity ever arises again take it. Take it to show that it’s important spread Torah and to be machnis orchim because these are wonderful mitzvos and not because there are new carpets and renovations to show off. You never know who you may inspire.

I agree with you. I am confused about the grass only being mowed 2 or 3 times a summer because tall grass/weeds makes the house look uncared for so maybe they can borrow a lawn mower or buy a push mower but it is sad to be ashamed of a clean house just because it's not updated.
I also wonder if rabbonim ever address these issues. Certainly there are other families who can't afford designer baby clothes and constant renovations. It would be great if more people proudly stood up and said that they were proud of their humble homes and wardrobes.
I wonder how many people who go OTD did so because they were rejected for not being in style.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Wed, May 29 2019, 9:39 am

southernbubby wrote:

SB, you know I'm usually quick to defend Lakewood, but this time I have to sadly agree. This is a real and serious problem (at least I think so) which is not being addressed.

I feel a little hypocritical posting on this thread. On the one hand I value simplicity, but on the other hand I have to admit that a lot of things about the way I live may not the line with my values. I buy my clothes in Kohls (I'm right now wearing a top that was about six dollars and I think it looks great) and my kids either hand me downs or really cheap stores, but OTOH I live in a pretty big house (very typical for Lakewood), we don't eat bread and water, etc. And the things I don't have I really want, such as a real dining room set with marching chairs. And new couches. So I'm really just as bad as anyone else.

What bothers me more - and I may be wrong - is the emphasis on gashmiyus. Even if it's cheap, even if you got bargains, it's the headspace that bothers me. Yes, you may have bought the matching headbands for 99 cents each, but you went around to every store in Lakewood to find the matching color. Because your six year old can't chas vsholom wear a neutral color that's not matching - the horror! You got your gowns at a gemach, but you spent days and weeks talking about the colors and how they match, etc.

I recently made a Shabbos kiddush. I spent a bit more than a previous poster, but that was because I wasn't making home made (bought stuff costs money). Nothing over the top, but nice cookies and cakes are expensive. I walked into the tablecloth gemach a few days before my simcha. They looked at me as if I just grew horns on my head. I don't get it- what's the big deal? A tablecloth is a tablecloth. So you'll get a different color. I ended up finding some tablecloths all the way in the back that were an interesting color, I went to Dollar Tree and bought vases and fake flowers to match. Some friends asked me if I need help setting up. What for? You put tables on the side, put on the tablecloth and food, and voila! It's beautiful. I went with my boys, we did it in half an hour. It actually looked stunning and almost zero headspace. I don't know - maybe I'm crazy. Maybe I'm totally wrong. All I know is that this way of life just doesn't work for me.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Wed, May 29 2019, 9:52 am

southernbubby wrote:

I don't really understand that either. We do our own mowing, about every 2-3 weeks from end of April thru about end of October. A lawn mower costs about $300, and pays for itself in one season.

I actually love gardening. I'm budgeting a certain amount per year - about $50 - for gardening.

This year I weeded an area in front of my house myself, using a trowel to flip the soil and clear it up. Hashem rewarded me in that the rose bush, which came with my house, bloomed with an outrageous amount of huge red roses this year. I spent around $20 on some fresh topsoil and a flat of marigolds. My girls pitched in and we planted them ourselves in one evening. So far a week later they are still alive, so our amateur efforts seem to be paying off (we also water them on days when it's hot and no rain.) I also have some peonies on the side of my house, and am learning how to care for them. They smell like expensive perfume. It's amazing.

I just bought a can of weed killer - comes with a spray head, was around $15 and I plan to spray the weeds after the next mowing, hoping for sunnier weather (youtubes are my best friend lately. Need to do it when it's not rainy, so the rain doesn't just wash it away.) Hope to get the weeds under control.

For next year, I want to budget some money for another rose bush maybe, and also some lilacs. I grew up with lilacs and just love the fragrance.

Firebrick, I'm sorry you feel that way about your home. I never really felt that way myself, not sure why. It doesn't bother me that my dining room floor could use to be scraped, or that my house isn't freshly painted or modern-looking, as long as my house is clean and I have something yummy to put out.

↑ giselle ↓

Wed, May 29 2019, 9:53 am

This really goes back to the concept of every self respecting boy from a certain background having to learn in kollel. And many people aren’t interested in living a kollel life. (See my above posts.) But that’s what’s expected of them. “Working boys” are looked down upon in black hat circles. If Mommy and Daddy can foot the bill, then sure they’ll go along with it. Why not? I would 🤷🏼‍♀️ But look what it caused. Kollel is for a select few. The whole system is messed up. Instead of teaching the boys the be kovea itim, they push kollel (on both the boys and the girls. Again, see my above posts.) So many people I know started off in Kollel and their husbands don’t even open a Sefer now. My not at all yeshivish husband learns every night. I have a lot of thoughts on this, but gotta go to work!

↑ southernbubby ↓

Wed, May 29 2019, 9:56 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Years ago, I used to love visiting with my friends in the Telshe kollel community in South Euclid, Ohio. The total focus was Torah and only Torah. My friends looked dignified but didn't obsess over their wardrobes or their furniture.
I wish that frum society could go back to focusing on learning Torah and avoiding anything else that distracted from that. The frum community would be a better place.

amother

↑ Firebrick

Wed, May 29 2019, 10:12 am

Chayalle wrote:

Firebrick, I'm sorry you feel that way about your home. I never really felt that way myself, not sure why. It doesn't bother me that my dining room floor could use to be scraped, or that my house isn't freshly painted or modern-looking, as long as my house is clean and I have something yummy to put out.

Probably because you don’t live where I live....
Also around here it’s not only about yummy food to put out, it’s all about how it’s displayed.

Thanks for the gardening /weed tip-
I guess we mow more like 4-5 times a season (not 2-3x) .... depends on how much rain we get
We probably do it every few weeks from end of May- beginning september
Like I said, there’s really not much to cut, mostly weeds

↑ Chayalle ↓

Wed, May 29 2019, 10:47 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I don't know, I guess I'm really guilty here but don't see things the same way. I think Hashem made a beautiful world for us to enjoy. As long as we don't go too crazy, and have a balance - you know, it's not permanent, after 120 we can't take it with us - and also, it's okay to enjoy this world as much as we can.

Like my gardening post. I don't think I have to live with an overgrown lawn and no flowers. I can spend a little to make a pleasant haven for me and my family. And we can mow the lawn, for goodness sake. It saves me money (no gym membership, and gardening is great exercise.)

And who says a bargain means headspace? Maybe your neighbor happened to pass buy the store next to the grocery and saw those matching headbands. Or she saw them when she was shopping for clothes for them - a necessary chore I do for my DD once a season, because unlike her big sisters who could wear the same clothes for multiple seasons, this one actually grows B"AH and her clothes from last year are usually too small. (No headbands though. she hates the feel of anything in her hair - plain ponies it is for us, or occasionally braids if we are in the mood.)

And you know everything is relative, right. Some people would think a colored tablecloth and dollar store items are an extravagance (I remember Simchas of 30+ years ago with plain white tablecloths) the same way you look at your neighbor's extravaganza as over the top.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Wed, May 29 2019, 10:51 am

amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:

I live in a neighborhood with a mix of fancy people and not-fancy people (and I find it is not always related to how wealthy they are. I have some neighbors who are well-to-do and simple.) Also a mix of ages, which I find to be more healthy - like everyone isn't necessarily up to the same stage at all times, and it reduces the competition.

I would feel no pressure about displaying my food if I hosted a shiur. I'd just take out a platter and put it out, end of story.

You are right - I don't live where you live.

amother

↑ Vermilion ↓

Wed, May 29 2019, 11:45 am

amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:

This is a fascinating thread for me to read.
I feel the same confusion/disappointment as op describes.
I moved to Lakewood 15 years ago right before it turned around to what it is now.
I would love to be living a life of Torah and simplicity. You almost don’t see that combination here anymore.
Perhaps by the yeshiva apartment area? I’m not sure...
At this point I have started the craziness of shopping for my kids before pesach and succos (matching,shoes and all). I am against it and don’t agree one bit but my girls were standing out as being different and I did not want that for them. I dream of it being normal to pick up a shabbos outfit in target and some nice hand me downs but in my neighborhood it’s just not done like that.
Recently, much to my great dismay I turned down hosting a shiur for women in my house. I don’t have a fancy home, although it was new and big 15 years ago, we never made any upgraded changes since then. Suddenly I saw my house through the eyes of other women and I just couldn’t invite everyone into my living room/dining room. I was embarrassed of my old worn out carpet and our second hand out of style dining room chairs...
It bothers me that I even care..,
My neighbors all around me have beautiful landscaping. We mow our own grass/weeds 2-3 times a summer. I can’t believe that I was recently thinking to use the small amount of money I got from a yerusha to do landscaping around my house!! I wish I didn’t feel this pressure that I don’t have it. Why can’t I feel proud of my decent size house with nice size property in Lakewood???!
Why have I begun to feel so inferior???
These things shouldn’t matter when living in a neighborhood steeped in Torah.
I’m all for living in a clean and neat fashion; fixing things when broken.
The hardwood floors, upgraded appliances, moldings, light fixtures, window treatments and furniture is not something I can’t financially keep up with.
I’m with you op. Where did Lakewood go??

2 or 3 times a summer is crazy. I get mine done every other week and it’s way overgrown by the time it’s time to be mowed. No ones talking to be fancy but a little pride in ownership will make a big difference.

amother

↑ Oak

Wed, May 29 2019, 11:56 am

keym wrote:

I think I wasn't clear.
I was saying that a family on programs legitimately with very little actual income has more disposable cash for SOME luxuries that many other middle class families can't afford.
Especially with qtr, so large portions of tuition can legally be paid pretax, lowering the income.
But at the end of the day, the Kollel and Rebbe friends and neighbors on programs are more easily able to have SOME luxuries that many middle class families can't dream of.

Tuition in Lakewood is lower-4/5k per child. Rent is really lower. 1800-2000 for a 5 bedroom house.

Not anymore. My sons tuition is over 8k for elementary and many schools are following. High school is also much more.
Also all the hud and new ppl from ny in town is driving up rental prices a lot now