Share your opinion without bashing please...

amother

↑ Cerulean ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 2:24 pm

Squishy wrote:

I am puzzled by this. They don't have any payroll deductions? I couldn't buy food extras, nice clothing, new cars, vacations and sleep away camp for a family half their size on that amount of money.

The math is right but it's a myth that they have enough money for nice cars,vacations and sleep away camp!! Can't Believe It

After tuition,cell phones,car insurance... there's almost nothing left if you have 8 kids
They barely manage. They don't live in luxury!!!
Kids that go to sleep away very often do it as mothers helpers. They buy one or 2 cars if they have to and try to keep it as long as possible(15 yrs or more is not uncommon!)
And most shop in serendipity!

amother

↑ Taupe

Tue, May 28 2019, 2:26 pm

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

Is it "bashing" to ask whether a significant number of people are getting income in a dishonest way? Like taking government grants they are not entitled to? This is an uncomfortable topic that gets avoided, but there has been evidence that it is a real consideration, and ties in directly to the topic of this thread.

I don't know the answer to your question. But I recently was talking to a friend of mine who is not in Kollel - both she and her husband have well-paying jobs - and she told me that they do not disclose alot about their savings to the tuition committee of their children's school. She actually defended this by saying that everyone does this. And that it definitely contributed to their being able to buy a more luxurious home, lifestyle, etc...

Sounds like another uncomfortable topic that gets avoided.

↑ 33055 ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 2:26 pm

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

The math is right but it's a myth that they have enough money for nice cars,vacations and sleep away camp!! Can't Believe It

So you are agreeing with me.

amother

Maroon ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 2:31 pm

Quote:

What have they sacrificed for Torah? why would they get Schar?

Since when is schar for limud torah only if they have sacrificed something???
What about all those wealthy elders who spend their retirement learning all day? They get no schar because they haven’t sacrificed anything?

This is where thinking is warped. Let them learn in Kollel and buy nice clothes if they aren’t asking you for the money. Don’t worry about where the money comes from or about them going into debt and how they educate their children. Educate your children as you see fit and maybe ‘we don’t look over our shoulders and judge other people’ is a good place to start.

amother

↑ Plum ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 2:40 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

Quote:

What have they sacrificed for Torah? why would they get Schar?

I'm talking about the wife. And that was clear in my post.
Learning Torah in itself get its own schar.
And it has nothing to do with "warped thinking" Rav kotler specifically built Lakewood to keep gashmius out.
Maybe his thinking was warped too according to you.

↑ Inspire

Tue, May 28 2019, 2:42 pm

amother [ Taupe ] wrote:

And this is fallout: families in genuine need appeal to the tuition committees and are doubted, because "everyone does this". The children of these families see the committees disbelieving and pressuring their parents for money that doesn't exist, and then have a hard time respecting the school that caused their family such unfair anguish.

Chayalle ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 2:56 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

I'm talking about the wife. And that was clear in my post.
Learning Torah in itself get its own schar.
And it has nothing to do with "warped thinking"

I'm a Kollel wife for over 20 years.

If you would take any Gvir from the 1800's and bring him into my home, I'm pretty sure he'd say I haven't sacrificed anything.

I have nice showers with hot running water available at all times (well, most of the time...sometimes on a winter Friday we need to space out our showers a bit.) I have indoor bathroom facilities.

I have refrigeration and freezers for my food. I have fresh vegetables and fruit, and I can afford to feed my family adequately (OK, we don't spend money on steaks, but chicken cutlets and meatballs can probably be deemed luxuries by once-upon-a-time standards). I drink an outrageous decalf every morning (Nescafe instant, with 2 teaspoons of sugar and MILK - unheard of by some.)

Each of my children have more than one Shabbos outfit and several sets for weekdays (interestingly, I think the uniforms are the most expensive. $30 a sweater for my 5th grader. Even the one I bought her from Zaras for Sundays was only $14.99 on sale). Most of them were bought at half price (or better) sales for last year's designer clothes. None of them are torn or stained (I hope. No promises for my very lively youngest, or even my sports-inclined teen...)

I have heat and air conditioning. I have a washing machine AND a dryer (no boiled pots and kneeling at the riverbank for me.)

I have more living space than my ancestors ever dreamed of. I have a comfortable (18-year-old) couch in my living room. I have beds for each family member (no straw tickings) and clean linen (see line about indoor laundry facilities).

I own electrical appliances like a food processor (grinds my potato kugel for me every friday!) and a Magic Mill (I haven't bought Challah at a bakery in about 20 years, and I bake my own cake and cookies). I have an oven that turns on with just the press of a button. I own an electric iron, and I even have a waffle maker.

I have a (12-year-old) car (that still works) that also has heat and air conditioning, and gets me around town (and beyond) in unimaginable comfort.

With these and other luxuries of today, what schar can I possibly get after 120?

amother

↑ Maroon ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 3:04 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

Because my husband goes out to learn after a days work and it doesn’t affect me because we BH have our finances sorted does that mean I don’t get any schar? It makes no sense. Where does it say that living a torah lifestyle means doing without? Or not buying expensive clothes? It’s what we have come to understand because usually those sitting learning all day will have less financially than those working all day- not always but often. So by default they will live at a lower material standard.

I wasn’t implying that the idea of less gashmius is warped- sorry if you took it that way. It was the idea that one living with easy finances and learning in kollel are mutually exclusive. And it’s nobodys business where the money comes from.

I find it hard to understand that you can expect everyone in a place to live at the same gashmius level the same like you can’t expect everyone in a place to live at the same Ruchnius level. But I didn’t know Lakewood was set up for that and so I’m sorry that it’s changed.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 3:08 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

That's why we're talking about 2019 and not 1800s.
Rav kotler didn't build Lakewood in the 1800s

Noon is talking about the lifestyle you wrote about and you know that.

Otherwise, ashreica

YOU seem like the kollel wife Lakewood was meant to be.

But that's exactly the point.

It's hard to judge what mesiras nefesh is at an individual level.

I remember years ago, when BMG used to make teas...they once had a panel where they talked about this topic. And they had a panelist who apparently came from a wealthy family, and she said she didn't join a family Simcha overseas once because it was during the zman. For her that was mesiras nefesh.

For me, I have missed several Simchos that my brothers in E"Y made because I can't afford to go, and that's my mesiras nefesh. But who's to judge whose mesiras nefesh is greater? Maybe it's easier for me? Only Hashem knows the answer to that, really.

amother

↑ Maroon ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 3:10 pm

Chayalle wrote:

And that’s exactly it- no one should be judging anyone else at all, not for anything.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 3:18 pm

unexpected wrote:

The topic of being mistapek bemuat is brought down all over our Mussar seforim in every single sect of (orthodox) Jewish thinking across the board. We also learned "HkBH chos al mamonam shel yisroel" It is jarring to see a family immersed in gashmiyus when the father learns in kollel

Yes, of course. The question is, though, what constitutes gashmiyus and what qualifies as being mistapek.

I remember speaking about this concept once to a very special woman I was close to, who came from the former USSR. She told me that back in Russia, she shared bathing facilities with several families. But since coming to the US and living here for quite a number of years, she preferred being hosted even as a guest with her own bathroom.

We get used to certain standards, and then our luxuries might be called necessities by some.

I'm not giving up my showers any time soon.....

I heard that R' Aharon Kotler considered certain housing that was built in the Yeshiva area (that most of us would consider the epitomy of Pashtus) as more luxurious than befits a Ben Torah.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 3:32 pm

unexpected wrote:

We may quibble on what is considered mistapek bemuat but we all know what is not mis tape bemuat

That's why I don't look at my neighbors and wonder why they are in Kollel, and whether they are sacrificing. Because I'm not really sure what mistapek may mean for someone else.

My wealthy Doona-pushing neighbor might be going on one less vacation per year than her wealthier older brother takes his wife on. Or maybe they couldn't budget for a new piece of jewelry for her this past Y"T, and she felt embarrassed when her whole family was showing off the gifts they got.

Another family's adorable matching kids may not having gotten the perfectly matched socks to those outfits, and her MIL's comment about the lack of style may have stung.

I have a friend who told me (this was like 20 years ago) that her in-laws told her not to show up in Brooklyn with her kids not matching, and not looking a certain standard, or it embarrasses them. Seriously, their beautiful grandchildren. She used to pack clothes and pull over when they got across the Verrezano to change them and make them "grandparent ready". And she had to spend on those clothes for her kids every season, just for them.

↑ giselle ↓

Tue, May 28 2019, 3:42 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

It’s exactly as you said. This isn’t what Lakewood was supposed to be. I didn’t choose that life because I don’t think I could live like that. But I agree with others that it’s a paradox to be in kollel and be immersed in gashmius. Ideally, none of us should be, but people who are in kollel are held by a higher standard and for good reason. That being said, I don’t think it’s necessarily about having money. No one can be faulted for being wealthy and being in Kollel. It’s about the ridiculously high level of gashmius, which afflicts both the wealthy and the poor. It’s not the Torah way. So if people are learning Torah all day, why aren’t they internalizing this? Something is wrong with this picture.