Does this piece of trash deserve more rights?!

↑ shabbatiscoming

Fri, Feb 01 2019, 1:34 am

Amarante wrote:

Obviously some people are more deserving than others based on their conduct.

However a civilized society recognizes that even a criminal deserves certain dignities as a human being because to do otherwise lessens the moral fabric of that society.

At one time, the heads of prisoners were put on a post and hung in the town square. As a civilized society, we now provide a decent burial for a criminal because to do otherwise is shameful and degrading to society - not the criminal.

Why do you feel it lessens the moral fabric of the society if a criminal is not treated with dignity?
My feeling is this: the criminal committed a crime. Obviously not all crimes are equal, but we are talking about murder in this thread. I dont think a murderer deserves dignities, he killed someone and changed the life of their family forever.

As I mentioned above, my family, unfortunately knew someone who killed his own children. It was awful. I always told people, that I never felt that he deserved any dignities. He snuffed out the life of two young kids who never got to grow up to become anything. Why should he get any dignities? In my mind, he deserved to rot in jail until his dying day (he ended up dying shortly after he was incarcerated as he got sick, so he didnt even suffer all that much for his crime)

↑ Iymnok

Fri, Feb 01 2019, 1:45 am

But FORCED to have a cristian minister standing next to him? That causes pain to any non-cristian people who hear of it. If he was a Jew who committed horrible acts, should he be forced to have a cristian clergyman at his side?

↑ moonstone

Fri, Feb 01 2019, 3:35 am

Here's a thought. If he didn't want to experience the HORROR Rolling Eyes

of a Christian minister being in the same room with him, maybe he shouldn't have stabbed an innocent girl to death. Then this whole problem could have been avoided!

As far as I'm concerned, they can put a rabbi in there, too.

WhatFor

Fri, Feb 01 2019, 3:44 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

For me it's less about what that person deserves and more about how I/we should behave.

I believe it affects my soul if I hurt another person, even if they deserve it. I believe it hurts a society if they kill people, even as punishment. There's a trauma in killing people.

It's one thing if someone has to do it to live, such as in self-defense. Then you have little choice. But there's no evidence that the death penalty makes a society safer.

Why should we hurt or degrade ourselves because someone else degraded himself?

↑ shyshira

Fri, Feb 01 2019, 4:51 am

moonstone wrote:

Here's a thought. If he didn't want to experience the HORROR Rolling Eyes

They can't put a rabbi in there until the law is overturned.

↑ Raisin

Fri, Feb 01 2019, 5:25 am

Cheiny wrote:

So far, no one you’ve mentioned is a triple murderer...but keep trying.

What about Weberman, who raped a little girl many many times. Why does he deserve any religious rights? You are saying being a criminal proves they are not religious, so this guy who committed rape more then three times why does he deserve the right to kosher food, access to rabbis and so on?

imasoftov ↓

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 9:16 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Really? All human beings are fine? What about murderers? Pedophiles? There are so many horrific crimes that sort of strip a person of their humanity, really.

Very really. The halacha is that someone who is executed by sekila (which does not include murderers or pedophiles) is then hung on a tree for the rest of the day and then taken down and buried. Murderers are executed by a less severe method and are buried without the hanging.

↑ imasoftov ↓

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 9:18 am

Cheiny wrote:

Sometimes it seems people have just as much sympathy for the murderer as they do the victim!

In the discussion of execution in Beit Din in the Gemara, it turns out that "love your fellow as yourself" applies even to the murderer. Imagine that!

↑ imasoftov

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 9:24 am

moonstone wrote:

Here's a thought. If he didn't want to experience the HORROR Rolling Eyes

Anyone rememeber Martin Grossman who was executed in 2010 and the Jewish orgs that tried but failed to prevent that? He was executed in Florida rather than Alabama but I imagine there would have been additional objections had he been required to have non-Jewish clergy in attendence at his execution.

↑ Fox

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 10:37 pm

marina wrote:

I recently had to explain to someone why there’s a “ Jewish prison” in Otisville. It wasn’t the best conversation.

So I'm curious how you handled such a question.

On one hand, it's tempting to call out bigots.

On the other hand, bigots who aren't allowed to ask questions have no chance whatsoever of changing or even just moderating their attitudes.

Statistically, the number of Jews imprisoned in NY is at least 1 1/2 times less than the overall incarceration rate for the Tri-State area. And even at Otisville, only a minority of the Jewish inmates were observant before going to prison. So while it would be wonderful if no Jew ever committed a crime and no judge ever imposed an unusually harsh prison sentence, I'm not sure that's realistic.