I'm having trouble liking my daughter.

amother ↓

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 3:22 pm

First off, I am BT and my children were all older when I started to become religious. Maybe if I had done so before they were born, we wouldn't have such a difficult time now. My oldest daughter was in 4th grade when we, together, decided that we would all learn about tznius and change our way of dressing. She was excited to wear only long dresses and skirts. She went to a 'community' Jewish day school. Last year in 7th grade, she started having a bad attitude and said she wants to wear pants. Since then she is ALWAYS sullen, moody, rude, disrespectful, won't pray, says that she doesn't like being forced to do things. She is now downright mean and disrespectful. I cannot stand her tone of voice, her rolling her eyes. I hate to admit that I just don't like her very much. I don't know what to do. Where we live are not many Jews so I know is hard for her. On shabbos, we stay home by ourselves. She is only person at her school that keep kosher. Her dad is not religious. But even though I understand this is a lot for her, I cannot take her attitude any more. And I don't want her to be a bad influence on my younger children. I've tried talking with her calmly, but its done no good. What do I do???

HindaRochel

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 3:38 pm

It has nothing to do with who you are it has to do with her being a teen. Don't criticize yourself for your past. Your daughter is a teen and she is giong to be sullen, angry, morose, wacky. She will tell you how terrible you are, how many mistakes you have made in life, how much better life would be if a. b. c.

Ride it out. Of course you aren't going to "like her very much" now. She's being a pain in the you know where, and make you know how rotten and stupid you are (you aren't but she is going to treat you like that). Somewhere along the line she'll stop treating you like enemy number 1-5 and start treating you like a human being.

It is worth the wait.

Motek

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 6:39 pm

amother wrote:

Since then she is ALWAYS sullen, moody, rude, disrespectful, won't pray, says that she doesn't like being forced to do things. She is now downright mean and disrespectful. I cannot stand her tone of voice, her rolling her eyes.

Are you exaggerating or do you really mean "ALWAYS"? Because always sounds extreme. What changed? Can you discuss this with her?

Can you consider moving to a more religious area? It must be extremely hard for her to be the only kosher one at school! She needs peers who are observant too.

[quote]Her dad is not religious. quote]

Is he on the scene?

Is she getting mixed messages from you and him?

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 6:48 pm

[quote="Motek"]

amother wrote:

Quote:

Her dad is not religious. quote]

Is he on the scene?

Is she getting mixed messages from you and him?

I admit that is a bit of an exaggeration. But honestly, it is rare that she is polite or even kind. When she is, I praise her. I think what changed is that she went from a jewish school even though it wasn't very religious to a public school. I want to move to a religious area but it is very expensive and we have looked but can't afford anything closer to us. Her dad is on the scene but he things that religious is silly, he comes from secular family and he thinks that maybe Hashem is real, maybe not but religion is made by people to oppress other people. Definitely mixed messages for the kids.

My daughter is still complaining about wanting to wear pants saying she is a freak at school and people call her 'skirt girl' and nobody wants to talk to her beacuse they think she is strange. I tell her it doesn't matter what those people think, only what matters is she is a bat melech and her dress should reflect that. She says that she wouldn't be so angry all the time if she can just wear pants. But I don't understand how something like that would make her be so mean and disrespectful to me and to her brother and sister. She also likes popular (non-jewish) music and even though I don't buy any for her, somehow she aquires it. I'm afraid that I am making too many rules and she will rebel completley, but if I back off, she will think that religion is not important. My own parents are no help because my mom told me that I am being unreasonable making girls wear dresses all the time in this day and age. I feel so alone and I'm so afraid that she will end up living a secular life like I was raised with.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 7:15 pm

ive read this over a couple of times, and really youre asking too much from her IMHO. at this point in her life, she has a need to fit in, and she cant if she dresses in long skirts . she cant even go out to eat with any of her friends because of kashrut issues, and she cant socialize with any of her friends, because my guess is, a lot goes on friday night and on shabbos. no music, because its secular............have you ever met a teen not into music with her friends????? try looking at it from her point of view.
id be in your face too, if this were me.
I wish I had a solution for you. but this kid needs frum friends if you want her to be frum at any level.

DefyGravity

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 8:02 pm

I agree with amother above me.

I think you are asking way too much of your daughter. I was in her situation, and it was awful. I always resented the fact that I wasn't allowed to fit in with the rest of the kids in my class.

You can't expect her to love wearing skirts all the time when she has to deal with completely secular peers. She needs orthodox friends if she's going to have a chance to feel better about the lifestyle that you have chosen for her. Especially since her father isn't frum.

imala

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 8:05 pm

Dear Amother,
It was really courageous and wonderful of you to become frum. Obviously this change is very difficult for your daughter. Even in the best of circumstances I.e. if you lived in a religious neighborhodd, she went to a religious school, wasn't getting mixed messages, etc., it would still likely be very hard for her.

Years ago, when I used to teach, I had a child in my class whose family had become more religious. The school wanted us to call her by her Hebrew name, but she really hated it. I taught her English, and I chose to respect her and call her by her English name. In time, she got more comfortable with it and now years later is b'h a beautiful bas yisroel. I wonder if you had a Rebetzin or Rav that could help advise you in this situation. I obviously don't paskin halach. But usually when someone becomes religious they DO take on mitzvos slowly one at a time. Maybe the Rav will say that you SHOULD allow your daughter to do certain things (such as wear pants) at this time, so that hopefully she will get more accustomed to mitzvos and be able to do more. Sometimes the 'short way' is 'long' and vice versa. Hatzlacha rabba to you and your family and may you have a ksiva v'chasima tova and wonderful new year.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 8:23 pm

I am in a similar situation, although it didnt reach the angry/sullen/all the time level. I agree with you about the rebellion, and so we came to a compromise. we let her pick 1 day a week at school that she may wear pants. these pants must be approved and if she wears them more than once a week they are gone! we take her shopping and try to make it about her.
I point out tznius clothing in store circulars and ask her opinion on what would make cute outfits. she has learned that dressing tzniusly can still be fashionable. I end up spending more on her clothes than I would have normally, because we have a strict budget, but I want her to feel like she still has choices. I offer her rewards to give up her 'day' and she is doing it more and more.
I know some will not agree that you should compromise, but you want her to love being frum, not hate everything about it. we also offered her rewards for davening, bentching and mitzvos and she is really starting to come around. I knew that as the parents we could have forced the issue, but I was afraid she would go off the derech as soon as she had the chance. we hoped that by giving her some room, she would learn to love it and bh it seems like its working.
we worked very hard to find kosher activities and I do think finding frum friends is a must. we did not allow her to 'hang out' with non-frum kids, but readily agreed to and encouraged kosher get togethers.
write her a letter and explain how important this is to you. tell her how much you love her and what a scary world it is out there and that part of the reason you want this for her is to protect her. let her know that you realize it is very hard for her and that you understand how it feels not to fit in. let her know you do appreciate how far she has come. we sometimes forget to thank teens for their efforts and they feel underappreciated. ask her what things you could do or not do to make her happier, outside of giving in completely. ask her what things she does like about 'being religious' tell her what things you like and the things that are hard for you. remind her and yourself that she was your little baby and you want all the best in life for her. really appeal to her heart. maybe seeing it written down will make a difference, since she doesnt have to debate each point with you.
I know how hard it is for you and have felt those feelings, like dislike, myself. I can offer you some hope that you will feel differently in time, remind yourself daily of her 'good' points. even in their most difficult times, they have them! and remember, she will iyh grow out of it soon. I wish you had more support from your dh, but maybe you could talk to him about this anyway
good luck Exclamation

↑ amother

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 8:24 pm

imala wrote:

Thank you for your kind and gentle reply and your encouragement. I guess that because I jumped into it all at once, I just assumed the kids would do it because "that's what we need to do". And at first, it was like that. I guess I felt so ashamed and embarassed at how I had been brought up and lived before, that I wanted to change 100% and began taking on every mitzvah I could learn about. Now....this is so NOT how I imagined my family would be when I decided to become religious.

I have just signed them up to begin Hebrew school on Sundays at a Chabad about an hour from me (the only other place closer is a reform 'temple' and that is not an option of course). Maybe there she will meet girls with whom she can be friends. And maybe I can talk to the Rabbi there about our situation.

Thank you for telling me about the girl in your school. It is great encouragement to me. You have also inspired me to really think about what I am doing and am I causing more harm to her and to our relationship. Hopefully with this and with any advice from the rabbi, I can learn to be more wise and gentle as well.

I wish you also a sweet and wonderful new year!

Ruchel

Wed, Sep 12 2007, 12:49 pm

I was the only kosher kid, if not the only Jew, in my school. I was almost the only one not dressing “like I want”, although the Xtian kids had some rules too. For shabbes, we also stayed home but I enjoyed and looked forward to the WE with my parents both at home all day.

Things that helped a LOT for me:
-being explained repeatedly how in fact I was the priviledged one
-having things only me could do, since I also had stuff only I couldn’t do
-eating with my friends at the cantina, I brought delicious home made food and ate with them
-my clothes were different, but not too different. People couldn’t guess it was a parental rule and not a girl who happens to dress like that. I was very trendy, labels…
-music was never an issue except the few times the lyrics were really bad.
-I went through a pants under skirt phase, I know here many seminaries allow them so maybe that could go for your daughter? (my parents had nothing against pants though).
-let her trendy, knee length skirts. Not long ones.

The problem imho does not come from public school, but from being the only frum girl and having too many rules “not compensated”, which makes her think the non frum have it better.

The trendy clothes and stuff I was allowed made me feel very very good about the other rules, and in fact luckier than the others.
I also kind of appreciated being the only frum because people came to me to ask questions about Judaism and I felt proud answering it. I also always tried to give a Jewish side to my essays (I still do it these days in university) and the teachers appreciated it, which made me feel proud too. Could she try to do that?

Anyway I acknowledge it depends a lot on the teen's personality, so
I plan to move to a frummer area to avoid this situation to my own dd in a few years. Even if a frum school opened here, the frum people are still very very modern and I don’t want her to be the only one in skirts and sleeves and no mixed swimming at school and so on.