Science vs Torah. And the winner is....

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 7:24 pm

Ruchel wrote:

I doubt she meant it to insult him.

im willing to believe that she didnt intentionally mean to insult him. but well see what happens. if I mistakenly insult someone without intending to, I apologize. lets see if she apologiezes...if she does ill be willing to let her comments drop. if not then I know she meant to insult rashi.

↑ catonmylap ↓

Tue, Sep 04 2007, 1:59 am

It's pretty impossible to argue with someone who will insist on something even if its right in front of your eyes. I think if we all went up to the top of Mt Everest, we'd hear huffing and puffing (bec the air is thin), no Eretz Yisrael is higher!

So, I'll try a story.

Dh got sent to the principals office in 7th grade because he was arguing against what Rashi said in a Gemora, and the teacher said he couldn't argue because Rashi wrote it with Ruach Hakodesh. The teacher asked the secretary, "do you believe Rashi wrote everything in Ruach Hakodesh? And she said "Of Course!" Later they discovered that Tsofot asked that same question on the Rashi.

And a Quote from Rashbam:
I argued with him [Rashi], to his face, and he admitted to me that if he had the time, he would have to compose new commentaries, according to the interpretations of p'shat that arise anew each day.
--Rashbam's Commentary
Bereishit (Genesis) 37:2

Quote:

how dare you put him down and say that he was working with "the science of his day" the science that he knew would dwarf anything that any scientist knows today!

Really. You believe he knew more than 11th century science? Was he human? An alien? A time traveler? Do you follow what he says on medicine? Do you go to the sort of doctor he went to that does blood letting and changes in your diet?

It's not denigrating chachamim to say that they did not know things that are not Torah. It's not kefirus to say that they lived in a specific time period and only knew what the other people of their times knew.

I don't know how you can think Rashi could build a plane when the great (equivalent) technology of his day was the first known use of a mechanical belt drive for silk spinning.

Last edited by catonmylap on Tue, Sep 04 2007, 5:01 am; edited 2 times in total

↑ suomynona

Tue, Sep 04 2007, 3:33 am

Sue Danym, you obviously have no idea what all the views of the rishonim and achronim are on this. There are plenty of people that say that we don't have to listen to chazal when it comes to scientific things and that they aren't to be taken literally. Just one example - R' Shamshon Refael Hirsch - we learned a whole piece of his in seminary about these types of gemaras.
So before you start calling everyone on here a kofer, maybe you should do your research first. You are representing only one view and it's probably the minority. I don't know all the details of who says what, but at least I don't claim to. I think you're just displaying your ignorance by sounding so sure of yourself.
And doesn't it say "Chochma Bagoyim Ta'amin" ? That includes your "stupid scientists".

I don't claim to have all the answers. But if Rashi says that e"y has a higher altitude than anywhere else, and I know it doesn't, it doesn't affect my emunah. I believe the torah is true and I'm sure there's an answer. The foundations of my beliefs don't get shaky because of scientific progress.

↑ zeldy ↓

Tue, Sep 04 2007, 7:04 am

I believe the rambam states that the sages are not expected to have any scientific knowledge above and beyond their time. I don't remember which class I learned that in, but if you want, I'll be happy to look it up.

Sue, I hope you don't take offense, but you may not be well cv"s. Some mental illnesses predispose people to imagine that massive governmental hoaxes are being perpetrated all the time, despite ample evidence to the contrary.

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Tue, Sep 04 2007, 4:27 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

Oh, and Sue,

You state that the MC says that no animal goes extinct. If that's the case, please tell me where I can find a dodo... I'd love to see one. I'd also like to know where all the sabertooth tigers, mastodons and mammoths, passenger pigeons, giant sloths and Tasmanian tigers are. If the Torah says that none of them go extinct, then they should be around somewhere. Please let me know where they are... I'd like to get some samples and prove to everyone that the Torah is correct on this.

Tammy

Sue,

I'm still waiting on an answer to this. Where are the dodos?

Tammy

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Tue, Sep 04 2007, 4:30 pm

Sue DaNym wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

I doubt she meant it to insult him.

Sorry, no dice.

Saying that Rashi was fallible is not "besmirching" him... it's admitting that he was human. Heck, Moshe Rabbeinu himself made mistakes, so why couldn't Rashi? So, no, I wasn't insulting Rashi... just pointing out that it's possible for him to be wrong... just like every other human being in history.

Tammy

↑ Ruchel ↓

Tue, Sep 04 2007, 5:52 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

The Portuguese sure thought it was good to eat, which caused its extinction in I don't remember which island...

Mauritius. And I thought it was the Dutch settlers and soldiers.

Tammy

The dodo was a flightless bird native only to the island of Mauritius in the Indian Ocean. The dodo was a flightless member of the pigeon family. Fully grown dodos weighted about 23 kg (50 pounds). Around 1505 the Portuguese became the first Europeans to discover the dodo. By 1681 it had been driven to extinction by humans and the feral dogs, pigs, rats, and monkeys introduced by Europeans to Mauritius.

Maybe he was "finished" by the Dutch?

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Tue, Sep 04 2007, 6:12 pm

Ruchel wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

The Portuguese sure thought it was good to eat, which caused its extinction in I don't remember which island...

Mauritius. And I thought it was the Dutch settlers and soldiers.

Tammy

Maybe. Could be I'm wrong too.

Tammy

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Wed, Sep 05 2007, 3:36 pm

tammy,

again, I dont have to justify the "scienteists" findings. they say that the dodos are extinct, but the torah says they arent. therefore, they arent. just bcuz they cant find them doesnt mean that theyre not out there. the same goes for the passenger pigeon, mammoth and all the other animals that u mentioned.

why is it so difficult for you to simply trust the torah? if you truly, really beleive that the torah is true why do you fight it at every step. I get the feelings from your writings that if the torah said that the sun rises in the east, you wouldnt believe it unless scientists also confirmed it. but thats such a sad thing to see. it shows that a woman who otherwise claims to follow the torah really doesnt have emunah in it unless it can be proven independently. well, I have emunah. I dont need any proofs. if the torah tells me that no animal goes extinct, then thats all I need. if the torah tells me that eretz yisroel is the highest land, then thats all I need. if the torah tells me that the sun and stars go around the earth, then thats all I need. and if the torah tells me that people never walked on the moon, then thats good enough for me.

the torah says lo sasur yamin usmoel. rashi says that it means that even if the chachamim tell you that left is right and right is left, you have to believe them. I find it sad that you give more trust to unproven "scientific facts" then the statements of the torah.

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Wed, Sep 05 2007, 3:37 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

Sue,

I'm still waiting on an answer to this. Where are the dodos?

Tammy

the dodos are the ones who dont believe in the torah.

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Wed, Sep 05 2007, 3:38 pm

zeldy wrote:

thanks for your concern zeldy but im fine. do you think that everyone who doesnt buythe "official" explaination for everything is insane?