Science vs Torah. And the winner is....

↑ Motek ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 11:13 am

catonmylap wrote:

Quote:

and I'm fairly certain that the source for eretz yisroel being higher than anyplace else is a rashi.

Higher in Kedusha--it's not literal.

See Rashi in Vayigash 45:9 The context is not about holiness but about Yaakov coming down to Egypt.

Quote:

Rashi & Rambam were regular people who only knew the science of their day. They are not the Torah, but commentators and great sages who studied the Torah. Just because they said something does not mean it is meant to be literal (it depends on the context etc).

For the second time in this thread I will say: Is that how you learned to speak of the RAMBAM?! The famous commentaries on the Rambam derive teachings from a LETTER in a WORD in the Rambam!

amother wrote:

I'd like to know:

1. Were you taught to think this way in school?

2. What segment of orthodox Jewry would you say you belong to?

My dh says its a different world from when we were kids in school. If we had came home with such ideas, my parents would have pulled us out and sent us to a different school. I can't imagine any haredi people I know thinking this way; they all are too smart.

Why anonymous?
What is "this way" that you refer to?
I agree with the OP's line of thinking that Torah tells us what is true, though I don't think all the examples given prove that point and some are outright wrong. That being said, you can be sure that those who think this way (I.e. that Torah has the final say) are what is called ultra-Orthodox/chareidi. Sad to hear that you would be removed from a school that taught Torah ideas.

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 11:14 am

Sue DaNym wrote:

Piper wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

dinosaurs never existed they ones in museums are made of plaster and are fakes. nothing goes extinct - its in the minchas hachinuch and therefore is in the torah.

rashi says that eretz yisroel is higher in a way that it means physically higher, not spiritually higher. of course, it is spiritually higher too.

the earth is the earth. anything else over the atmosphere is the heavens. the torah clearly describes the sun and moon as part of the heavens: see devarim perek daled pasuk yud ches.

im personally a bit shocked too -- that people are willing to discard what the torah teaches us in the name of false "science"

And how do you explain away dinosaur fossil remains?
And are you saying that Eretz Israel is located at a higher altitude, than, lets say, Mt. Everest?

theyre fakes planted and produced by atheiests and the yetzer hara/satan to get us to abandon the torah... sadly it seems to have worked.

I'm just flabbergasted. I don't know what to say to this.

Quote:

rashi says that eretz yisroel is the highest land and the contextin which he says it shows that its talking about physicalreality nto spiritualy. so, if rashi tells me one thing and "scientists" tell me the opposite, who am I going to believe? youd better believe that I'm going to trust rashi first!

Did you ever consider the fact that Rashi never visited Eretz Yisroel or Mt. Everest? Did you ever consider the fact that maybe Rashi wasn't speaking from his mesorah but rather from his own scientific knowledge, which, coming from the science of the day was lacking (with respect to our current scientific knowledge)?

Tammy

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 11:18 am

Oh, and Sue,

You state that the MC says that no animal goes extinct. If that's the case, please tell me where I can find a dodo... I'd love to see one. I'd also like to know where all the sabertooth tigers, mastodons and mammoths, passenger pigeons, giant sloths and Tasmanian tigers are. If the Torah says that none of them go extinct, then they should be around somewhere. Please let me know where they are... I'd like to get some samples and prove to everyone that the Torah is correct on this.

Tammy

↑ Motek ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 12:17 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

It means that you have no idea who Rashi was and how his commentary was written. Rashi was a Rishon and his commentary has hundreds of super-commentaries written on it, many of which analyze not only the precise wording of what he said, but analyze what he didn't say as well as which words ("divrei ha'maschil") he says his commentary on.

Rashi's commentary is not about mesorah nor about the science of the day. It was written with ruach ha'kodesh. Once again, another reason to be shocked on Imamother.com. It boggles the mind.

tammy wrote:

does that mean that you agree with Sue that Eretz Yisroel is higher physically than Mt. Everest?

I would have to know what the commentaries say. I asked two people and both said it could be understood physically as meaning the top of the globe. In other words, rather than show the earth as we do, with the North Pole on top, it could be E.Y. is on top. But I haven't seen a source for that.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 1:38 pm

suomynona wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

I didn't know there were people that don't believe that men landed on the moon.

Some hardcore leftists say the mean Americans made it up LOL

↑ Ruchel ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 1:39 pm

Sue DaNym wrote:

Piper wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

And how do you explain away dinosaur fossil remains?
And are you saying that Eretz Israel is located at a higher altitude, than, lets say, Mt. Everest?

theyre fakes planted and produced by atheiests and the yetzer hara/satan to get us to abandon the torah... sadly it seems to have worked.

The mountain is fake?

Fossils: some say they are remnants from previous worlds

↑ Ruchel ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 1:41 pm

Sue DaNym wrote:

zeldy wrote:

I find this thread hard to believe. You people who don't believe that men have walked on the moon, do you also believe the videos of these are fakes? Do you also believe that this is what Judaism requires of you to think and everyone else is wrong? Or a heretic?

yes,the vids were fakd! the whole thing was shot on a hollywood sound stage. you can even check out on the web the evidence that it was faked.

try to find what these people think of Israel and the Jews generally... the same way they say the moon landing was made up, they might very well say it on the Holocaust.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 1:44 pm

Motek wrote:

catonmylap wrote:

Quote:

and I'm fairly certain that the source for eretz yisroel being higher than anyplace else is a rashi.

Higher in Kedusha--it's not literal.

See Rashi in Vayigash 45:9 The context is not about holiness but about Yaakov coming down to Egypt.

Quote:

For the second time in this thread I will say: Is that how you learned to speak of the RAMBAM?! The famous commentaries on the Rambam derive teachings from a LETTER in a WORD in the Rambam!

amother wrote:

My husband went to chareidi school. He was never taught that physically Israel was higher.Only spiritually. He says comes down could also be understood since Egypt is South from Israel.

↑ TammyTammy ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 3:38 pm

Motek wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

tammy wrote:

does that mean that you agree with Sue that Eretz Yisroel is higher physically than Mt. Everest?

The problem with that, Motek, is that the earth turns on it's axis. Unless a point that is on the axis (I.e. either the North Pole or the South Pole) is "on top" then as the earth turns, the point you've chosen will no longer be "on top."

Tammy

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 3:44 pm

Motek wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

thank u motek. im amazed at her stubborness and her denail of torah. I sometimes seriously wonder if shes frum atall. wouldnt she have the status of a kofer?

Quote:

tammy wrote:

does that mean that you agree with Sue that Eretz Yisroel is higher physically than Mt. Everest?

or it could simply be that eretz yisroel is higher after all.

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 3:45 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

Piper wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

And how do you explain away dinosaur fossil remains?
And are you saying that Eretz Israel is located at a higher altitude, than, lets say, Mt. Everest?

theyre fakes planted and produced by atheiests and the yetzer hara/satan to get us to abandon the torah... sadly it seems to have worked.

The mountain is fake?

Fossils: some say they are remnants from previous worlds

no. the fossils are fake.

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 3:50 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

Motek wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

tammy wrote:

does that mean that you agree with Sue that Eretz Yisroel is higher physically than Mt. Everest?

u know something tammi im sick and tired of the way u denigrate the torah and the chachamim. rashi was written brucah hakodesh. he was a rishon. he was a giant such as that we cannot imagine. he could have done things that we today can only dream about. if he wanted to he could have invented cars and planes and trains but he chose to put his kochos into torah and became the rebbe for all of klal yisroel. how dare you put him down and say that he was working with "the science of his day" the science that he knew would dwarf anything that any scientist knows today! if he said that eretz yisroel was the highest land, then he new exactly how high eretz yisroel was and exactly how high mount everst was and how high every single mountain and hill on earth was -- and if he said that eretz yisroel is the highest, then it is the highest.

it only not the highest according to people like you who have no faith in the torah and are willing to believe anything that any silly scientist says over something that a rishon wrote b'ruach hakodesh. now, please, for heavens sake, please shut up and stop besmirching the memory of this holy tzaddik.

↑ Tehilla ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 3:58 pm

Quote:

Rashi's commentary is not about mesorah nor about the science of the day. It was written with ruach ha'kodesh. Once again, another reason to be shocked on Imamother.com. It boggles the mind.

What can we say? Not much. The Torah is true in its entirety. All the wisdom of the nations pales in (there really is no) comparison. Yes, I was educated in a public high school and college, and I wish I could trade all those years and all that knowledge for EVEN ONE DROP more of understanding the Torah.

While neither Moshe Rabbeinu, nor Rashi, nor Rambam, or any oher tzaddik or sage need our defense, I will say this. There is such a thing as emunas tzaddikim. And a realization that the Torah is to be understood on many levels, and when it says "and the words of these and those are correct" it means that many times two different opinions can both be valid.

Cleave to our Torah, and to Chazal, and all the tzaddikim. It is the only way to live, for without Torah, there is no true life at all.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 4:05 pm

Sue DaNym wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

Piper wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

And how do you explain away dinosaur fossil remains?
And are you saying that Eretz Israel is located at a higher altitude, than, lets say, Mt. Everest?

theyre fakes planted and produced by atheiests and the yetzer hara/satan to get us to abandon the torah... sadly it seems to have worked.

The mountain is fake?

Fossils: some say they are remnants from previous worlds

no. the fossils are fake.

I already prefer the previous worlds explanation, honestly.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 4:07 pm

Quote:

if he said that eretz yisroel was the highest land, then he new exactly how high eretz yisroel was and exactly how high mount everst was and how high every single mountain and hill on earth was -- and if he said that eretz yisroel is the highest, then it is the highest.

how come the measures say the contrary?

Quote:

people like you who have no faith in the torah

she wouldn't be here

Quote:

any silly scientist

you don't need to be frum to be clever

Quote:

now, please, for heavens sake, please shut up and stop besmirching the memory of this holy tzaddik.

please could we stay civil

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 4:09 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

Piper wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

And how do you explain away dinosaur fossil remains?
And are you saying that Eretz Israel is located at a higher altitude, than, lets say, Mt. Everest?

theyre fakes planted and produced by atheiests and the yetzer hara/satan to get us to abandon the torah... sadly it seems to have worked.

The mountain is fake?

Fossils: some say they are remnants from previous worlds

no. the fossils are fake.

I already prefer the previous worlds explanation, honestly.

thats fine, although I have to wonder... if there were other worlds and they were destroyed, why would the fossils still be here?

↑ Sue DaNym ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 4:14 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

how come the measures say the contrary?

I dont know. maybe theyre just wrong. maybe they purposely faked the results. maybe the yetzer hora/satan doesnt let them see the real answer. I dont know why and I dont care...its not my job to justify their results... its only my job to follow the torah.

Quote:

people like you who have no faith in the torah

she wouldn't be here

Quote:

any silly scientist

you don't need to be frum to be clever

Quote:

now, please, for heavens sake, please shut up and stop besmirching the memory of this holy tzaddik.

please could we stay civil

I will, if she is civil to rashi. but if she insists on besmirching and insulting a holy tzaddik I have to speak up

↑ Ruchel ↓

Mon, Sep 03 2007, 4:16 pm

Sue DaNym wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

Piper wrote:

Sue DaNym wrote:

And how do you explain away dinosaur fossil remains?
And are you saying that Eretz Israel is located at a higher altitude, than, lets say, Mt. Everest?

theyre fakes planted and produced by atheiests and the yetzer hara/satan to get us to abandon the torah... sadly it seems to have worked.

The mountain is fake?

Fossils: some say they are remnants from previous worlds

no. the fossils are fake.

I already prefer the previous worlds explanation, honestly.

thats fine, although I have to wonder... if there were other worlds and they were destroyed, why would the fossils still be here?

There was an article on it, I wonder if someone has the link?