Help - need chizzuk for this time of year

↑ mandksima ↓

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 1:53 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Mandksima, I don't think you bothered to look at the articles I referenced. If you don't want to read, just take a look at this picture. 16th century depiction of Santa Claus in red and looking very benign. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....0.jpg

So you and/or Rabbi Kelemen are wrong about this. I don't care what his credentials are -- I have hefty academic credentials myself -- he is clearly wrong about Santa Claus not wearing red before the days of Coca Cola. Sorry, if Rabbi Kelemen makes a mistake about something as easily checkable as this, why should I take him as a reliable source about the origins of Christian customs?

Yes, some of the pagan origins have their big guys being mean. So what? The meanness of the pagan customs were soften by being absorbed into Christianity.

As far as what you are saying about korbanot: That's certainly a legitimate viewpoint. But it's not the one that Rambam discusses in Guide for the Perplexed.

I did look at what you referenced but it really had most of the modern information and very little of the pagan origins going back to Nimrod who was said to have come back after dying because he was a self-proclaimed god and turned into a tree. That's where the Yule log comes from. Way before Xtianity arose. You would have to look up pre-Xian pagan origin of Xmas. Anyway, I don't wish to research this more, I probably shouldn't have read all that I did. There's plenty online but not at kosher sources as you have to look under anti-pagan church articles. Better to listen to the rabbis who speak about it if you want a better understanding. Rabbi Keleman wasn't wrong at all. He never said Santa didn't wear red at all before, just our version was the American commercialized one. That's the one we can all look at and not feel is anti-Jewish because he seems so benign. That's the point of modernizing him. Our yetzer hara has a field day with this. It's much better to enjoy our own holidays with the knowledge that our rituals have remained in place for thousands of years with no such evolving to the point where nobody knows why we do the things we do. We celebrate Purim, for example, exactly the way it was written. Nothing changed as far as I know. I wonder if anything evolved other than minhag really or maybe something that had to change if it threatened Jewish life.

I have to learn Rambam's Guide to the Perplexed again. It's been 20 years at least so I can't comment on that yet. It just doesn't really have a relevancy for the points we're making. Karbanot are ok because Hashem said they are. He created the world knowing we would need to connect with Him in that way.

I'm trying to understand why you are intent on trying to find the benign parts of Xianity. What do you gain from that? I don't think any of it can be benign as it all relates to idol worship and we are commanded to stay away from it.

↑ JoyInTheMorning

Tue, Dec 26 2017, 7:39 am

mandksima wrote:

Mandksima, I wasn't referencing the Wikipedia article to prove that Xmas doesn't have pagan origins -- it's common knowledge that it does -- but rather to show that the benign portrayal of Santa Claus dates to well before Coca Cola's creation in 1892 and certainly well before the Coca Cola Xmas advertising campaigns of the 1930s. Clement Moore had popularized a benign view of Santa Claus in the 1820s, and even before, as I pointed out in my previous post, Sinterklaas was portrayed as a nice figure. Anyone who is remotely conversant with modern Western culture knows that Santa Claus also has his stern side; thus, the threat of the switch or lump of coal to children who had not been good during the year, and the Elf on the Shelf reporting to Santa. (Totally apart from the issue of Christianity, I don't favor the bribe/punishment approach to raising children -- as my previous posts on this board attest -- but that's not the issue here.)

You ask why I am intent on trying to find the benign parts of Christianity. I don't think you're correctly characterizing my intent. My intent is being historically and currently accurate. I really dislike historical revisionism as well as mischaracterizations of current culture and (metaphorical) climate, and I see both of those in your post.

I know that there has been and continues to be in our world and even in America, tremendous antisemitism. I am not denying that. However, in America today, I also know that I don't need to look hard for kindness among Christians, and from Christians toward Jews. I have experienced this kindness many times, in medical, personal, and professional relationships. These (and many other) people celebrate Xmas as a time of love and peace and good will. They are not planning pogroms or mass conversions. To deny this is to be guilty of a lack of hakarat hatov as well as speaking sheker.

Realize that this doesn't mean that I am looking to celebrate Xmas; please don't put words into my mouth. In no way did I ever suggest such a thing. However, I can be sympathetic to the OP, who grew up as a secular Jewish person whose family did celebrate a kind of secular Xmas.

I don't understand your desire to paint everything that is connected to earlier pagan ritual as terrible. The reason I brought up the Rambam's view of korbanot is that he himself believed that Hashem would not have commanded B'nei Yisrael to bring korbanot if they had not been so attached to pagan rituals of sacrifice. And even today, we have numerous minhagim that have pagan roots. I'll give you an example that you brought up: that of Purim. You are correct the the basic mitzvot -- reading the megillah, mishloach manot, matanot l'evyonim, and se'udah -- have not changed for millennia. However, there are some Purim minhagim, including masquerading in costumes and using the gragger when Haman's name is read, that we first hear about in the Middle Ages. The masquerading in costumes appears to have been taken from the Christian Carnival, which itself has clear pagan roots.

In general, it is impossible to distance ourselves entirely from outside culture, and outside culture creeps in. (As an example: Raps at Jewish weddings and Bar Mitzvahs, anyone? Personally I hate those raps -- give me classical music any day -- but they're certainly an example of external culture infiltrating ours.)

I have a feeling -- I hope this feeling is incorrect -- that it is hard to discuss these matters with you, because you censor yourself from reading external sources. I can't imagine doing that. I'm an adult, and I'm a critical consumer of information. The rabbis that I listen to and whom I respect accord me enough respect to know that I will not be damaged by evaluating a source. I don't believe that anything that I am saying comes from a source that would damage anyone's emunah.

(Note that I think daily about what Pirkei Avot says: אל תאמן בעצמך עד יום מותך. However, if anything, restricting myself from learning would be more damaging to my emunah than doing what I do now, which is to look into these issues seriously.)

(ETA a whole day later to properly spell "pogrom.")

Last edited by JoyInTheMorning on Tue, Dec 26 2017, 6:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ mandksima

Tue, Dec 26 2017, 1:26 pm

I really don't want to get into any argument. My purpose is to bring Jews together on this matter and to help those who have no idea otherwise how to understand the origins of a holiday which has turned into a cheerful and fun holiday and which on the surface can appear benign. No matter how good it makes one feel, it is related to avodah zara, death to Jews and fearful times. I think it is tasteless to celebrate so lightheartedly on a date so sensitive to Jewish neshamot. With the non jews sometimes and ignoring the avodah zara items placed all around. It is incumbent upon us to learn the meanings behind things and not just say, it's just a pretty tree, I'm just exchanging presents or whatever...I am not saying it is easy as it is so attractive to enjoy the holiday good will and cheer around but know proper limits.

So, unfortunately my saying so has taken the fun out of Xmas for some Jewish women here by reading the truths as I have learned them. It could be all of my sources are wrong but I doubt that. There is another thread on Nittel Nacht that also talks about the fear Jews had on this holiday in the not so distant past. If it were still happening in Europe, I would hope American Jews would not feel disassociated with it just because it was benign feeling in America.

This is a written info sheet written by Rabbi Lawrence Keleman which is perhaps easier for others to read, it says a lot more than what I wrote and what he said in the video so maybe it fills in the gaps. Xmas the Real Story

Good ole St Nick was one of the creators of the New Testament (denies the validity of Judaism and it's laws) and thus started the whole Jews are the Devil and killed our savior kind of idea so taking him and creating an innocent Santa, even many, many centuries later, is anything but. It first became a Nickolas pagan cult, then Pagan Woden and evolved into the Catholic Church introducing him into part of the gift giving saint. In the 1800s, Santa changed forms and yes, in the Coca Cola campaign, he became the bright red, white fur lined Santa of today and no more bishop (religious symbol) like or gnome like. He is still called St. Nick and he is still anything but benign. Hmm... I guess we can just agree to disagree. St. Nick is a symbol of Xtianity so benign it isn't. Even if he looks like a nice character, it shouldn't make him innocent and harmless. North pole, reindeer, chimney - those are all made up and pretty recent.

I don't see anything wrong in my post. My intent was the truth. That's always been my intent. I don't see anything you sent as exposing any misrepresentations. I really fail to see any historical differences. The difference is how the history is presented. My readings have searched for the pagan undertones while wikipedia has skimmed them over and focused on the pleasantness we have today in our holiday season. So be it but you have to search a few more pages of wikipedia to find other info and really I googled and found much more under the church articles which I don't love reading as they are questionable. There are issues with studying other religions and believe me, I am nothing like what you picture me, I do not shy away from knowledge. I search for the truth. I didn't always have my current views so I actually never censored myself from reading all about other religions. I always found it fascinating. I try now, with more Torah knowledge to avoid things I know is dangerous to read like the church articles...I am trying to be more sensitive to my own neshama which receives damage from this even if my academic side is still interested. Anyway, this post isn't about me.

I agreed with the nice holiday spirit in America and how it brings out the best. I have nothing against Xtians celebrating their holiday. I have no problem keeping my distance as much as possible from most of it since moving to Israel. I am not suggesting to shun neighbors or coworkers or even family members who celebrate. I am not meaning to be insensitive to the OP at all. I feel for her and am sympathetic to all others who have this predicament. Just reading these things for the first time will enlighten some women to feel differently. That's my aim. To realize our differences even though two people of different religions can be nice people, we can't mix in celebrations which celebrate things we are not allowed to celebrate. I'm not so sure what a secular Xmas even is. I think it's an ignorant Xmas. What's the point in celebrating a holiday that is bereft of it's original meaning and origins or one where one has no idea about them? That's why I mentioned Purim. The beauty of it is it's original origin remaining known. I never read that about how costumes originated, I'll have to look that up. I did find this though that gives multiple other reasons Why Do We Dress Up on Purim. That's an irrelevant point though as it isn't a mitzvah of Purim to dress up and there have been many rabbis throughout the ages that frowned upon it or even forbid it. Cross dressing or women dressed up to attract attention could be very problematic. Anyway, it's a minhag established way after the megilah was written so irrelevant to the point of original origins of holidays. It is interesting to note that there were two who dressed up in the Purim story. One was Achashverosh who was drunk and wore the Kohen Gadol's garb, the other was Mordechai who was dressed in the King's robe and pranced around the city. It might be accurate that the costuming minhag came from Carnival incorporated into the holiday or it may have come earlier, during the story itself, and then carnivals fit right in later on and those mocking our practices found that amusing and attributed it to that. Who knows? I tend to agree with you as many rabbis were upset at the practice. The grogger was a newer way to drown our Haman's name. Other things like two stones were used years ago. That's not a mitzvah either so you don't have to make use of that practice. Yes, culture brings in plenty of influence on local customs as well as with Jewish customs. That's not my debate. Foreign religion's customs are something to concern ourselves with though so we don't accidentally do something that is related to idol worship or other forbidden practices. We must be astute in knowing what we are are doing and answering for our actions.

I don't really wish to debate with you anymore as I don't think it helps the OP or anyone else seeking chizzuk and perhaps the truth as I have learned it. You don't have to agree with me or even like my post if it bothers you. My point was to build the sensitivity to the destruction of our people on that day. Very much like not forgetting the destruction of our Temples and loss of countless Jewish life on Tisha B'av. We have that one day already which covers many terrible days of horrible things happening on that date so we don't need another fast day but with the same thought process, Xmas should be a personal day of mourning or at least remembering for us considering all of the evil that has befalling Jews throughout the beginning of Xtianity. If one needn't go that far, then at least admit one shouldn't be celebrating it or desiring to. That there is an issue with that. That wouldn't mean thinking negative thoughts about innocent Xtians of today who hardly know their own history and are not wishing us harm or planning any pogroms, just actively avoiding any celebration on that day or in the whole holiday season since it wasn't just that one day.

Please tell me, OP, has any of this helped you? Hopefully, it has helped someone or I just wasted a lot of time...