Help - need chizzuk for this time of year

trixx

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 5:34 pm

Hey Op I'm frum from birth and I love the holiday season. Festivity, lights, great shopping, sense of coziness in the middle of winter, the cute nutcracker and snowflakes my town hung up on every lamppost. It's a whole atmosphere, I can't imagine having been part of it and then leaving. The only thing that comes close to this jewish wise is chanukah in Israel, wow is that special.

smileyfaces

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 5:54 pm

Of course you miss it! There’s no shame in that. It brings back memories of hot chcolate and fireplace fires, opening lots of gifts, playing with your cousins. Wearing cozy matching sweaters, etc..
Smile when you think about your childhood holidays, and be proud of where you are today!

amother

Red

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 6:21 pm

amother wrote:

They are not just "getting together". It's turkey (non kosher of course (even for.non Horowitzs)), crackers, presents, etc. I really miss the songs - trying to knock them out of my head. I grew up believing in the guy with the red suit. We had a tree.

I must be a complete IDIOT! I've been frum for more than 20 years.

I should have made a Chanukah party but they are not really into it.

Give me something else to think about maybe.

For some reason I can't see it as a problem.
I mean, if it's bothering you it's clearly a problem for you.
But, pushing away feelings never worked for me.
When I see someone celebrating x-mas I strongly feel along there joy.
It's not there religion that I feel along with.
It's the nice family time, the festive, air, the party's etc.
I love festive days so so so much, the minute chanukah was over I almost cried.

Do you think that you'll change religious beliefs because you have festive memories?

Surrendered

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 6:57 pm

Hugs! Make sure to treat yourself well.

amother

Hotpink

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 8:45 pm

Would focusing on the historic brutality faced by Jews of previous generations during this "magical season" help? It usually helps me.

In their religious zeal, Christians of yore would kill their neighboring jews around x-mas time. Thousands of lives were in danger. It was a horrible, terrible time for Yidden in Europe.

Try it.

BH5745

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 11:57 pm

amother wrote:

It's crazy I know but I'm feeling left out. And like I'm missing out. And like my kids are missing out. I am not even a giyoret.

Please knock some sense into me.

OP, I really feel for you, this sounds like a very difficult test... And I'm also no giyores...

But I think your comment implying that gerim would miss x-mas, at least more than a BT, was cruel and unfair. Cruel, because it perpetuates a negative stereotype about gerim (that somehow they must be "less" Jew-ish, even if they are equally Jewish...) and unfair because we can't assume that gerim struggle missing this or that from before they became frum. Do thr majority of gerim you know struggle missing x-mas?

Just because you as someone who self-identifies as a BT struggle missing x-mas, does not mean that's normal or would be more normal for a ger. In fact I know a few gerim and none of them struggle the tiniest iota missing x-mas or any other non jewish holidays.

mandksima ↓

Sun, Dec 24 2017, 11:59 pm

amother wrote:

Yes. This. Big time.

I really do feel for the OP or others who miss things about the holiday in the way they celebrated it but it has to end there. A nice memory. There should be no excuse for ignoring what history has covered up. Anyone grappling with the issue owes it to themselves to attempt to understand the origins of what they are missing. It really doesn't matter that this is unknown to many and now it is a holiday celebrated with lots of good cheer and joy. You are celebrating over lots of spilled Jewish blood and very depraved pagan practices.

I had to write something like this as I only recently learned the real truth behind the holiday season and its horrible pagan origins. I cried so much last night after listening to Rabbi Lawrence Keleman's Xmas shiur. I couldn't believe how things have changed over the centuries. EVERYONE should listen to this The Real Story of XMAS. I'm in Israel where you hardly see a glimpse of the holiday but then I just read about 1000 Jews attending a Xmas service in the Israeli north because they wanted to appreciate the culture. That made me cry. The horrors and atrocities that were committed towards Jews in particular are beyond disgusting even though they stopped happening recently. How quickly does all of this get swept under the rug. Listen to this shiur (or others on the subject) and then understand.

Never mind the fact that even for Xtians, the day doesn't even correlate to the birth of their savior. That's been changed around plenty over the years and any Xtian theologian knows that. So it doesn't matter if you say you don't believe in that and you just like the holiday cheer. All of what you currently see as celebratory practices come from sinister places and cause great harm to us on an emotional and spiritual level. The tree is a direct avodah zara practice imported from blending in pagan religions into the holiday in order to procure followers. The Asheirah religion would bring a tree into their house, decorate and worship it. When they were pressed to join Xtianity, they were allowed to bring in this idea but had to move the date and only bring it in on Dec 25. So, being near an innocent tree is not so innocent once you know. Mistletoe was used to poison children as a pagan sacrifice. Now, it is symbolic to kiss under the hanging branch but it used to be a license for any man to rape a woman under it with no consequence. Any woman found outside on Xmas eve was also fair game to rape so women knew they had to stay indoors. s-xual depravity was part of the celebration. Picking a Jew to kill each year publicly in a extreme tortuous manner was also tradition. The red suit was a very recent addition created from a Coca Cola company marketing strategy to incorporate some new idea so distract from the fact cocaine was removed from their recipe and sales were down. Instead of the black cloaked, scary looking Santa from the warm climate, he became a North pole, jolly, fat old man with rosy cheeks from the cold climate. All marketing to create new good vibes.

I have a problem with Thanksgiving as well as it is celebrated on the blood of the indigenous population with no thought to how they view it as a day of mourning. Why should Americans care? It's a nice time to get together and eat turkey...We are Jews though and can get together for our holidays many more times a year. Living outside Israel is more difficult because people don't automatically have all of the Jewish holidays off and feel this might be the only time. Well, that excuse is not very excusable once you know what you are supporting and covering up history.

In the video, he mentions a really good analogy for today. Maybe my Thanksgiving example doesn't do it for you. Imagine five generations down the line when your great great grandchildren are out celebrating with their friends Hitler day. It became a well celebrated holiday with lots of nice practices. Little Hitler characters decorating the house, swastikas as well. Yellow stars that no one can remember the origins of but they are so pretty so it doesn't matter that they were once used to mark almost certain death. The kids don't care to think about what Hitler stood for, what he managed to do and how he affected so many first hand unwilling participants and the families of the survivors. How would you or your surviving grandparent feel if they knew this would happen in the future? How would the Jews from all throughout the centuries who feared Xmas and it's entailing gore react to how it is a wonderful celebration today in the modern world and Jews as well see nothing wrong with just enjoying a bit of the holiday cheer??

Xmas's origins have committed horrible crimes over all of the centuries in such a horrid way. All of the symbols one can enjoy like Santa in a red suit, caroling, mistletoe, presents, the tree - all represent Pagan practices which harmed Jews and created hellish nightmares for the Jews of that time. Jews were forced to run naked through the streets for the pope's enjoyment, law enforcement closed down because there was a bunch of days where anything was allowed with no punishment including murder (of Jews or others). Carolers were naked centuries ago (not very Jewish, right?), Santa was an evil horrible looking monster who would rip kids apart if they were misbehaved (there are countries which practice this today and dress up to scare their kids). A lot of the practices were rallied against in decent modern society until the last hundred years. Even in the early 1900s, the tree was considered a bad practice. There are Xtian sects (Seventh day Aventists, Jehovah Witnesses) which don't practice pagan rituals and know not to celebrate Xmas like it is today. Some still do as they don't want to cause a lack of world peace but whatever. It is avodah zara and they know it yet not all Jews do! That is why I cried...

Even New Year's eve has sad origins for Jews. The one who instituted Jan 1st to start the new year with his changed calendar, also instituted that all Jews must bring their children to hear a conversion ceremony on the eve after services. Jews were forced to pay a tax for a house of conversion also then. All sacred literature of the Jews like the Talmud was confiscated, broke into the shuls and took the Torah scrolls. Jews who protested (many) were flayed alive. A holocaust that we swept under the rug so we can join the festivities. The Israeli government discourages New Year's parties because that wouldn't appropriate for a Jewish state so Sylvester is celebrated by secular Jews or ones who don't know better. I only heard of this recently after many years living here. Sylvester was a pope who didn't let Jews live near Jerusalem and killed many Jews who wouldn't leave. Even worse...

HOW CAN WE NOT CRY and beg Hashem to remove all of the sheker from the world and bring Moshaich immediately?? We need him! We are living in an alternate universe from the way Hashem wants us to live! I know this time of year can look beautiful and can create good feelings in your memories but your precious Jewish neshama can feel the pain of this!!

imasinger

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 1:28 am

It is very hard for those of us who grew up with non Jews to take such a harsh tone.

Those people opening presents and singing songs are not evil. They are sometimes even our own family, and also our neighbors and friends. They respect our religion, and only want to share their pleasant experiences too.

Their celebrations may have been warm, loving, and beautiful. The songs are way better than the Chanukah repertoire, no question.

All that being said, there is a reason you became BT, OP. Something inspired you enough to give up eating treif, no matter how warm and happy the memories. Something inspired you to dress differently, to act differently.

We are told that there is extra schar in giving up something that you enjoyed when it is halachically necessary.

Find something to do to celebrate your strengths, to distract yourself.

And, instead of focusing on those memories of when you didn't know differently, imagine the discomfort if you were actually there, now that you do.

Maybe it wouldn't feel so great to try to sing those carols, or see that tree. Maybe you'd be wishing you hadn't come, so your happy memories of the past hadn't been colored by the awareness that you have changed.

What can you do to make today meaningful? Is there some chesed you can do that will replace the sense that you are Scrooge, and leave you smiling for having created a new tradition for yourself?

amother

Sapphire

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 3:10 am

I'm FFB and love the x-mas carols.
How about humming the music without words?
Besides that what you miss, if you ask me is the family time.
Maybe you can create and work on having such a get together with your family on Channuka?
It might take a few years for it to sink in, but it's worth the effort.

JoyInTheMorning ↓

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 3:16 am

Mandksima, I really must object to your post. There is much that is historically wrong in what you wrote. To take just one item: If you look up Santa Claus and Sinterklaas on Wikipedia, you will see that Santa Claus was associated with gift giving and candy and jolliness long before Coca-Cola was invented. He wears red because the original Saint Nicholas was a bishop and bishops wore red. (If you don't consider Wikipedia a valid source, consult the sources that the article references. You will see pictures of Santa Claus wearing red that are much older than Coca-Cola.)

It is certainly true that Christianity incorporates pagan rituals into its holidays. Is that so terrible? The Rambam in Guide for the Perplexed explains korbanot as something that Hashem incorporated into the Torah because B'nei Yisrael at the time of Matan Torah were so attached to their pagan rituals of sacrifice. See p. 7 of Rabbi Shmuel Goldin's "Unlocking the Torah Text: Vayikra."

And comparing JC to Hitler was way over the top. JC was not an antisemite -- he was Jewish -- and certainly didn't go around promulgating a Final Solution.

↑ mommy3b2c

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 4:08 am

BH5745 wrote:

That’s not what she meant at all. She meant a giyores is more likely to miss it because a giyores is more likely to have celebrated it. Most BTs won’t miss x-mas because they never had x-mas. Not everything everybody says is offensive in some way.

↑ JoyInTheMorning ↓

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 4:12 am

OP, don't feel bad. It's natural to miss x-mas festivities. I am frum from birth, and I remember how much my classmates and I wanted to participate in x-mas in some way. This was in a Bais-Yaakov type school! We'd go around singing "Tis the season to be jolly." In junior high we taped pairs of pantyhose to the blackboard, the closest we could get to hanging stockings on the fireplace. This was in the afternoon, of course, when secular teachers were coming in. (The principals turned a blind eye, and the secular teachers just laughed.) I used to look forward to the x-mas tree that the super of our apartment building put up in the lobby. It was so much prettier than the tacky electric menorah!

As an adult, I have my own struggles dealing with all the beauty that Christian culture has to offer. As a sixteen-year-old freshman in college, I took Music 101. The first week of class, I was doing my homework, listening to the selections of music that had been assigned to us, and I was captivated by a Gregorian chant that we'd been assigned. Since then, it's always a struggle for me not to listen to Christian music. I find it so much more beautiful than "frum" music. (And yes, I know that there is a school of thought that Christian music developed from the music that the Levi'im sang in the Beit HaMikdash but that doesn't help me any; it's not like I can listen to the latter.)

Similarly for art. When I was a child, my mother used to take us to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York to the Impressionist art galleries. (The pictures there, mostly landscapes, were safe.) We'd rush past any galleries with Christian art. But when I took Art 101 in college, I was glad to have the chance to look at these works in more detail. Those roundels by Lucca della Robbia! I could never look enough at them.

I think it's natural to acknowledge all the beauty that there is in Christianity and at the same time realize that we need to separate ourselves from it, at least to some extent. Regarding x-mas, when I lived in New York, I always allowed myself to go to the department store windows to see the holiday displays there. If I drive by a house with x-mas lights, I think it's fine for me to acknowledge to myself how lovely they are. I generally turn to another radio station if x-mas songs come on -- I don't like them anyway, so it's no sacrifice -- but if I hear Bing Crosby singing White x-mas, I remember that a Jewish songwriter, Irving Berlin, wrote the song, and substitute in my mind "White Winter" for "White x-mas." There's nothing really Christian about the song.

I think the real message for us is that we need to make our own chagim more beautiful and exciting, and work on incorporating more beauty into our culture. (I don't mean crass materialism; I mean the glorious, soul-lifting beauty that Christian culture does offer.)

Good luck in all of this. Don't feel guilty.

↑ mandksima ↓

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 4:34 am

JoyInTheMorning, I appreciate your reply. I obviously wrote what I did in order to try to wake Jews out of the stupor that they see nothing wrong with celebrating with idol worshipers (Xtians) or any part of their celebrations which celebrate the persecution and death of Jews.

Firstly, I wrote what was recorded in the shiur I posted from Rabbi Lawrence Keleman, a widely known and respected speaker who studied much on the subject. I am sorry if it sounded like I was writing of my own knowledge, but this was his. I have also heard similar facts in Rabbi Yehoshua Zitron's Xmas shiur XTIANITY EXPOSED

Regarding Santa Claus, he was originally, like I wrote, a character changed by the times and from not so innocent origins. Either he was a dark natured evil man who would devour children if they were naughty, or he was nice but he had a Dark Helper, a gnome like figure who was by his side and scared the children. You can look up old German folklore, Norse legend, Odin/Woden, I even heard about an evolution of Nimrod who fought against G-d becoming the legend of santa claus. The red suit was a newer change to Americanize the character people have come to love. Some santas lived in the forest and had no beard and was slim. There were changes in between the original and the newest, one being a religious clothing look like the bishops. Now, that, as your example, shows even more so how what Americans are idolizing is a religious symbol and not just a jolly old man, perfectly harmless.

There is NOT a very big problem with Xtianity incorporating paganism into their holidays for Xtianity's sake. That's their business. It is a problem for the Xtians who will have to answer in general for idol worshipping in their religion as it against the Noahide Laws. There's only so much I can say to the Xtian world in order to get them to stop idol worshipping (I say nothing as of now) but I do feel, especially here, on Imamother speaking to my fellow Jewish women, that I can try to clear up some misconceptions about why it isn't ok for a Jew to celebrate Xmas in any way.

Karbanot is not as simple as you write. Remember the Torah was written as a blueprint for the world and the idea of them is something normalitive according to Hashem and He created the world according to it. Jews don't sacrifice the same way as pagans, as in not with their children or virgins. Kayin and Hevel were the first ones to sacrifice and they did it to Hashem, the One G-d, not to the pagan many gods. The later people decided to change who they were sacrificing to and that shouldn't be confused with the reason why we had sacrifices then and why will will have some kind in the future. We don't even have the desire for it today like we did then. We did then and it was part of human nature. It makes sense that they were incorpotated into the Torah. But there are vast differences. Hashem doesn't need them like the Pagans believe like they do or else the gods will be mad. The pagans sacrificed in order to get what they wanted. We sacrifice because it is part of the avoda and for getting forgiveness. I am no expert but these ideas are ones I have learned.

The comparison to Hitler was not a direct comparison to JC and it wasn't my comparison, it was the rabbi's. It was trying to understand how the origins of religious rituals can change after many generations and the gruesome details can be overlooked in order to have a party. There are god comparisons though. JC was guilty according to the Beit Din and the religion created from his life has been responsible for killing countless Jews over time, in every persecution, progrom, inquisition, anti-semitism through the times. Worse than the most recent holocaust when added up. Do you really feel that JC was just a nice Jewish man? That he is not held responsible in the next world for what happened? All the anti-semitism from after his death is his and his follower's doing. It doesn't matter if it mostly started up after his death.

There are many Torah sources on this and if you want, I can try to look up some more. Rabbi Tuvia Singer is fantastic on this subject and debates Xtians all of the time.

The point is - what does your neshama feel about this? I doubt it feels ok with celebrating holidays from the pagans.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 4:48 am

BH5745 wrote:

I need to go back and read that. I think she was just being empathetic, and trying to find more people who could really get her.
And I would say that there are still (still because I shudder to think of coming generations if Moshiach doesn't come sooner) BTs whose families have minimal to no real connection to Xmas besides going to movies and eating Chinese.
Apologies if I'm putting my feet in my mouth.

↑ JoyInTheMorning ↓

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 4:52 am

Mandksima, I don't think you bothered to look at the articles I referenced. If you don't want to read, just take a look at this picture. 16th century depiction of Santa Claus in red and looking very benign. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....0.jpg

So you and/or Rabbi Kelemen are wrong about this. I don't care what his credentials are -- I have hefty academic credentials myself -- he is clearly wrong about Santa Claus not wearing red before the days of Coca Cola. Sorry, if Rabbi Kelemen makes a mistake about something as easily checkable as this, why should I take him as a reliable source about the origins of Christian customs?

Yes, some of the pagan origins have their big guys being mean. So what? The meanness of the pagan customs were soften by being absorbed into Christianity.

As far as what you are saying about korbanot: That's certainly a legitimate viewpoint. But it's not the one that Rambam discusses in Guide for the Perplexed.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 4:57 am

mandksima wrote:

Yes. This. Big time.

HOW CAN WE NOT CRY and beg Hashem to remove all of the sheker from the world and bring Moshaich immediately?? We need him! We are living in an alternate universe from the way Hashem wants us to live! I know this time of year can look beautiful and can create good feelings in your memories but your precious Jewish neshama can feel the pain of this!!

Of course. Many of us are out of continental Europe because our ancestors got out. Not just the crushing poverty but the pogroms, and we know that Dec. and April were trigger times.

But we are living in such a superficial world. Here in the US there is an atmosphere of good will to all men and women. I was driving a friend who needs assistance to move around and as I was getting her back in the car, it was clear I needed help. Before I could turn around, some lovely people (yes, I know they weren't Jewish, sorry to bring up color as proof) helped. My friend felt uneasy being such a spectacle, I hope I finessed it for her by sincerely thanking these people and saying that it's nice to know there are good people all around, and not just in December.

This is what OP is missing and I for one will validate her fully.

We're not at the turn of the last century. It's a different world. And a very superficial one. I contrast this to the Elul and Tishrei. You have people (kids) being good to get their gifts. Ok, the grownups have a level of spiritual service in the weeks leading up and what they call Holy Week too. I'm sure there are some. But this is not what's being telegraphed. Yesterday there were major football games. The shopping is beyond, though it's great for the economy and raise your hand if you've taken advantage of sales. You would think the meal would be just as big a to do as Thanksgiving but I don't get that impression.

Then comes the aftermath. After all the spiritual avodah, you would think people would make kabbalos. Sure they do. They're called resolutions. And they're not, I want to lose weight to be healthier to be a better servant of G-d. They're more along the lines of bucket list items.

This is the atmosphere we're living in. We have to work not to get sucked up into it because if we live surface lives, the Yevanim will win.

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 9:47 am

op, I'm FFB - never celebrated Xmas, and still feel like I "miss it". It looks like such a warm, family-oriented holiday and I just love the xmas songs and lights. So don't feel bad for feeling the way you feel; I would think that's just normal.

↑ PinkFridge

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 9:51 am

I hear enough music/muzak to hear that some of it is moving.
But maybe instead of giving in and listening, try other pretty stuff. Like Simon and Garfunkel.

grace413

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 9:51 am

Childhood memories, bad or good, stay with us forever. I'm coming from the total opposite end of the spectrum - an FFB girl who grew up in secular surroundings and always hated the entire month of December because it made me feel so different. BH I am in Israel and don't have to deal with it.

But you have fond memories of family events and closeness and of course you miss that. It doesn't mean that you aren't frum enough or that anything is wrong. You remember happy events, that's all.

↑ mandksima ↓

Mon, Dec 25 2017, 1:19 pm

imasinger wrote:

I hope I didn't give the impression that all who celebrate Xmas today are evil and horrible people. I don't remember saying anything like that. Most of the time, the holiday season brings out the best in the American people. It's a beautiful time of the year. People are more generous, smile more and are more pleasant to be around. All that creates nice memories. I do get it and I have my own. I know most of the words to the songs I heard on the radio and in the malls. I remember hearing carolers outside and loved driving by houses at night to see all of the light displays.

That doesn't mean a Jew doesn't have to fight his urges to connect with it once he knows the truth. My harshness is necessary. Once I learned all of this, it put a very bitter taste in my mouth the way it should. I'd like everyone to feel that change now in place of just the fond memories. It's a yetzer hara like any other. Good memories just make it a stronger pull and is the yetzer hara's lure, don't believe that it's nothing and harmless. Living among the nations is a terrible struggle and we have to be strong during our galus in order to remain Torah Jews. Just like a baal teshuva may remember the taste of forbidden foods with a certain fondness, he will know where to put the boundaries of memory hopefully. He will not sit in a non-kosher restaurant with his Xtian friend (that would be an additional issue but that's not my point) and inhale the lobster's fragrant smells in order to do everything but actually taste it and sin. He will have to divorce himself from thinking about it as much as he can in order to remove the attraction it once held. He will not tempt himself. Is isn't the same exactly though. We are not required to hate a non-kosher food, all the more reward if we love it dearly and abstain because we are told to by Hashem. But idol worship related enjoyment is a whole separate ball game. Once we accepted the Torah, we agreed to give up all ties to our past which included idol worship. Hashem gave us straight guidelines as commandments. "Do not mention the names of other gods, do not let them be heard on your lips." These are not suggestions. I think anyone would be embarrassed after 120 years when standing in front of their maker and seeing images of themselves celebrating at holiday parties next to the tree and under the mistletoe, next to those wearing their trusty santa costume and exchanging presents. They won't be able to say we were just enjoying the wonderful holiday aura around us and it didn't mean anything. It is totally assur. We won't be able to escape from the truth then so let's try to accept it in this world.

I remember Rabbi Tovia Singer talking about this on his Xmas video on YouTube explaining this concept. He said it would be like a spouse keeping old photos and love letters from an ex girl/boyfriend and looking at them with their current spouse and saying, wow, they really were attractive weren't they? That would really damage the current marriage and if they want to keep their marriage safe, they would never talk about their ex in conversation and think it is just fine. That should be our relationship with Hashem. Our ex was idol worship and we should have nothing to do with it again. We don't just hang out at a holiday party for old times sake. We keep far away and guard ourselves from its grip on us. It has to be kept seriously as it is a very big sin when the lines are crossed and you don't want to be playing around figuring just how far you can go before crossing it. Just stay away and keep the vows you took and your marriage safe.