Lakewood offensive sign?

↑ southernbubby ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 11:20 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

The government pays towards degrees through FAFSA, and states have their own formulas how they help college students. And aren't community colleges and state colleges at least partially funded by various governments?

Yes you are correct but even degrees that seem to lead to a job don't always and sometimes something that looks worthless, such as a degree in women's studies, black studies, etc actually have jobs in academics and teaching. Some schools are just mediocre and the degrees offered there are worthless, but the idea is to attempt to put the person to work with a degree, even if it is unlikely to really happen.

Kollel isn't pursued as a way to make a living, even though some will go on to teach or become community rabbonim. Kollel is important, don't get me wrong, but because the intent is not to graduate with job credentials, it is not viewed the same as an attempt to get job credentials.

↑ southernbubby ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 11:28 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Thank you fox, for reliably being the one voice of sanity.

but in places like Utah, the polygamous Mormons, who have enormous families are also not well loved either by the locals. No one likes when someone gets away with something.

And remember that reality TV family with 19 kids, the Duggars? Lots of people hated them and they were not on any public assistance but the world felt that they were usurping more of their share of something on the planet.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 11:29 pm

jkl wrote:

If you apply the focus to the individual towns separately, specifically in those towns where there are many welfare recipients, the math works out differently.

As of 2012, BMG had 6500 enrollees and the population of Lakewood has 60,000 individuals. Lets say the average family size is 8 - that gives you 7500 families - Or the average family size is 6 (10,000 families). And even if you remove all the singles from the 6500 count of students, you will still be way above the 1/12 mark.

Somebody's math is off. Lakewood's population, according to Wikipedia," As of 2016 the town had a population of approximately 100,758 residents." I'm sure there are more that are undocumented. I'm not really sure what this has to do with anything, though. There are non-Jews living here, too. so let's estimate that there are about 60,000 Jews. The average family size is NOWHERE near 8, that's ridiculous. I think the average age of Lakewood residents is about 22. The vast, vast majority of men who are learning in kollel are working by the time they have six children.

BMG has about four,five thousand men learning, k'h. Not all are married.

I can't imagine that the total of kollel learning families in the United States is anywhere NEAR approaching 1/12 of the general Jewish population. We have a long way to go.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 11:39 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Well, people are ignorant and prejudiced. My heroine is Phylis Schlafly, whenever she was asked why she had so many kids she would respond - "my kids are funding your social security".

Anyway, I seriously think that I am doing a great service to the world by raising such wonderful kids!

↑ southernbubby ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 11:40 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

But back to the guy with the sign, was he addressing the source of income or the amount of traffic and crowds? I mean, if people hate large families for creating crowding, it has nothing to do with who pays for their existence.

↑ southernbubby ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 11:51 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I certainly don't apologize for my kids and grandchildren, I thank Hashem for them and ignore those who want to make remarks. Those who don't have kids have a really lousy old age, at least IMHO.

↑ RebekahsMom ↓

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 12:08 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Right. So you equate welfare with TANF? We were having this argument a bit upthread.

I do, at least on some level. I never collected any type of welfare/ housing assistance/ food stamps/ WIC. My computer is at least 8 years old, my current phone has a sliding screen with a keyboard under it (remember those? Lol). My car has over 100k miles on it. I had a whopping 3 nights of vacation in 10 years that didn’t involve a family member housing us. I purchased a whopping ZERO sheitels in those 10 years, and 2 pairs of shoes. I scraped every penny to support my kids medical needs, and saved for months just to offer them a single day out. My kids went to public school for their medical needs. (Okay, call that my welfare). But the gov’t doesn’t factor those medical expenses into assistance.

And I look over at someone who needs gov’t assistance (because you might not say “welfare”, but the gov’t is handing you free food and shelter) while pulling their brand new smartphone out of their designer handbag and discussing summer camp? They’re complaining that they can’t afford tuitions for their 4th, 5th, 6th child?

And B”H my husband and I are now both working and now live comfortably (in our tiny townhouse with our 10 yr old phone and 100k miles car), and I can now say I’ve bought my kids 1 good vacation in their lives.

But while I was living that life, I held some resentment. YOU chose to have child 5. YOU chose to put them all in private school. YOU can’t pay YOUR rent, but can drop thousands on a Simcha. And yet, you have a better phone than me, a better car, a fancier stroller THAT YOU COULDN’T AFFORD if the gov’t stopped paying for your rent and groceries. And NEEDING assistance to survive is my definition of welfare.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 12:10 am

RebekahsMom wrote:

This was in Lakewood? And this was a kollel family? Seriously?

Last edited by Mommyg8 on Fri, Dec 08 2017, 12:13 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 12:16 am

RebekahsMom wrote:

I live in one of the surrounding towns but spend a significant portion of time there.

You saw people who have designer handbags, paying multiple tuitions, and are getting food stamps? Is that what you saw?
I'm living in Lakewood many years, and maybe I hang out on the wrong side of town, because I never saw that.

↑ RebekahsMom ↓

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 12:44 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

For sake of shortening that post, I don’t mean it’s the same person doing all of those things. But yes, you most certainly can see people in your local shul that you know for a fact collect either housing or food benefits while telling you that their newish Uppababy was a bargain at only $549 (I’m not sure what’s wrong with a similar brand new graco for under $200), or others walking in/ out of social services, or standing on line in Shoprite, pulling their EBT cards out of their designer bags.

I could make the same argument for the women who do what I’ve listed above while begging for discounts on tuition, which people seem to understand more easily. Same idea.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 12:51 am

RebekahsMom wrote:

Most young couples I know who are in kollel are either living poor, or they have support, or the wife has a good job. If they have support, then they can be genuinely eligible for programs even though mommy just bought her a new bugaboo.
I honestly think you're generalizing to an extreme. There are very few kollel couples who are paying multiple tuitions and are still being supported by their parents, but if they are, this is legitimate, and please don't be jealous. And please don't overgeneralize.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 12:57 am

southernbubby wrote:

There are very few bachelor's degrees today that lead directly to jobs. And NOBODY views college as a vocational school. Except on imamother.

Many kollel yungeleit go into chinuch or similar, so theres that argument....

But really, Lakewood learning is meant to be leshma, it's not meant to lead to a job. Let's pretend it's a philosophy degree, and well be fine.

↑ shyshira ↓

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 1:02 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

There are very few bachelor's degrees today that lead directly to jobs. And NOBODY views college as a vocational school. Except on imamother.

really?? and if you are studying accounting, engineering, computer science?

I'm so confused.

I'd argue that most 2 year colleges are set-up as vocational schools. But I'm on imamother - so I'm a nobody apparently..

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 1:06 am

shyshira wrote:

Do you know what the percentage of bachelor's degrees are in engineering, accounting and science?
Community colleges- where I went - are totally not set up as vocational schools.

↑ RebekahsMom ↓

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 1:13 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I’m not saying look like you’re 2 bills away from being homeless. I remember my sister in law bought me a coach bag one year, so I know not everything is spent on your own.

But my original statement was that people need SNAP or section 8, but can afford thousands in tuition. The lifestyle simply isn’t always affordable.

↑ RebekahsMom ↓

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 1:16 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Do you know what the percentage of bachelor's degrees are in engineering, accounting and science?
Community colleges- where I went - are totally not set up as vocational schools.

I completely agree with mommyg8. A vocational school teaches fundamentals of a specific job or career path, for example, everything you need to know to become a mechanic. If you decide later to become a teacher, you wasted your time in that vocational school. Even a 2 year college tends to give you a well rounded education in math, language arts, etc, on top of some (not all) of the specifics you may need for your field.

↑ shyshira ↓

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 1:21 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Do you know what the percentage of bachelor's degrees are in engineering, accounting and science?
Community colleges- where I went - are totally not set up as vocational schools.

are you suggesting that of the pool of bachelor degrees available, B.Eng, B.Comm and B.Sc are Representative of 'very few' degrees? I don't have a list of Bachelor Degrees available. Where I went to school - there were fewer than 10 Bachelor Degrees - so 3/10 is more than "very few".

I'll qualify my statement. There are often two tracks at a community college - one that is a pathway to a 4 year college (which could lead to all sorts of things) and one is a Career path - which are specifically designed towards getting work. Perhaps the schools that you went to didn't offer that.

↑ RebekahsMom ↓

Fri, Dec 08 2017, 8:09 am

imasoftov wrote:

I don't feel like chocolate has calories.

Well, You need to understand how chocolate works. Chocolate shared with friends is always zero calories. Chocolate/ ice cream consumed because your husband/ kids stresses you out goes straight to the hips.

At least this is what my group of friends has all decided on. It was a unanimous vote.