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Mommyg8
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 Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:11 pm
| benny wrote: | | A very large chunk of those ppl are bochurim, not kollel ppl. |
And a very large percentage of the "yungeleit" are newly married. I would assume the average age in BMG is 27. Hardly old enough to have three kids, let alone six.
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mommyla
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Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:15 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | mommyla, I am going to ask you a serious question, and please answer seriously. Where do you see that the kollel system is slowly imploding? Who do you know that is literally dropping dead from the stress of living a kollel lifestyle? Is there this huge hidden population that I don't know about?
I think the non-kollel people are jealous. I hear it over and over again on imamother, I just do think so. Maybe I'm wrong. I often am.
And it's one thing to gripe privately over our problems, real or perceived, and quite another to slander entire Jewish communities on an open forum.
The non-Jews are angry because the perception is that the Jews will take all their tax money, and give nothing back. They assume that the reason the Lakewood school district is in the red is because Lakewood residents are not paying enough taxes. Neither of those things are true, but posts such as yours don't do anything to change their perception. |
Oh goodness. Let me make something very clear. I LOVE ALL JEWS. I harbor no resentment or hatred against other Jews, no matter what they choose to do with their lives. I am simply explaining why the non-Jews are upset. These views are not my views, though I can understand where they're coming from.
I am a non-kollel person. We used to be kollel people. Not anymore. I am not jealous, nor are any of my friends. I do not in any way, shape, or form feel that kollel people are sucking my funds dry nor do I begrudge them my tax dollars. Again. I am simply explaining why the non-Jews are upset. Can you see their viewpoint? It is not unfounded. My intention is not to slander an entire community. At all.
I've never heard people claim that the Jews don't pay taxes. I pay nearly 40% income tax and a boatload of property tax.
Yes, I actually do know people who have dropped dead from the stress of marrying off children who expect to be supported when there is simply no money. That is a direct byproduct of the kollel-or-you're-second-class system. There was a poster on another thread who said that her life is extremely difficult because they simply cannot make enough money in kollel.
And the system is imploding because who will support the next generation? There will always be people who are determined and strong and will do whatever it takes and live extremely simply to stay in kollel. I greatly admire those people. But there is a very large population of people who are supported in kollel and you can't deny that it's an expectation in the yeshivish shidduch system. It's simply unsustainable beyond another generation.
I have made my point and I don't believe I have anything further to add to this thread. Please do not take this as bashing the community, as it is not my intention. Once again, I'm simply trying to explain why the non-Jews are upset with our community.
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shyshira
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Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:17 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | SSI is different? lol.
And a person CAN get social security even if they only worked a few years - surely not enough to have funded two decades of retirement. |
you can't get social security retirement benefits if you haven't paid in anything. I didn't say anything about number of years worked (I think you need 40 quarters?)
and SSI is different. lol?
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Fox
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Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:21 pm
| jkl wrote: | If you apply the focus to the individual towns separately, specifically in those towns where there are many welfare recipients, the math works out differently.
As of 2012, BMG had 6500 enrollees and the population of Lakewood has 60,000 individuals. Lets say the average family size is 8 - that gives you 7500 families - Or the average family size is 6 (10,000 families). And even if you remove all the singles from the 6500 count of students, you will still be way above the 1/12 mark. |
So if I understand your thesis, it's not really kollel itself or government assistance -- the problem is when too many kollel families live in a specific town or neighborhood. They annoy people. Their cars clog the streets. They stand in the aisles at Costco. Their kids are obnoxious.
This is the complaint of every demographically changing community in the world. In fact, we hear the same complaints when upscale communities begin attracting a particular religious or ethnic group. Heck, Muslims in Dearborn, MI, are unhappy that so many Pakastani Muslims are moving in.
You've explained your reasoning but given no evidence that government assistance is the cause for resentment. Given that we see similar attitudes where government assistance is not a factor and, in fact, where no Jews are involved, I'm not buying the idea that the lion would lie down with the lamb if we only got rid of kollel learning.
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Mommyg8
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Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:23 pm
| jkl wrote: | I don't get why you are so focused on the farm benefits. The farming benefits was established to help ALL OF US - you, me and everyone else. It wasn't established because the farmers wanted to keep their farms or wanted to be farmers for life. The government doesn't generally interfere if industries get phased out or priced out. They only established this so that the most basic ingredients of all our foods is readily and cheaply available for society to survive.
I would think that sustaining our food supply is a priority and does pull weight over everything else, no matter the cost! It makes PERFECT sense to get upset about people milking welfare programs for personal benefits, while being okay with billions and trillions of dollars being spent on 323 million peoples' most basic need. |
Jkl, check the statistics, currently 40% of children being born in the United States of America today are born to single mothers. What percentage of those mothers do you think are receiving some form of welfare? Why are you not worried about their lifestyle choices? Why are you so fixated on the drain of Lakewood kollel families (and a lot of them don't receive that many benefits, either) who are a tiny, tiny percentage of American families, and not on the drain of women who have children when they know there is no father around to help support? Why is it ok for them to live on one income (the single mother's), but it's not okay for a kollel family to live on one income? And if you will tell me that the average kollel family has eight kids - no way. The average kollel couple is 28, and has two to three kids, max. The vast, vast majority.
And I have news for you, the current system is DESIGNED to help the single mothers. I just read a book by Barbara Ehrenreich (I read everything), and she explained that the liberal viewpoint is that the government should replace husbands as the second wage earner, so that women should not have to get married, or be stuck in marriage. Her reasoning was that most marriages are bad anyway, so women are much better off being single. And the government should subsidize. And if you think this is not the reality, today, then you have your head in a bubble, too.
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cnc
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Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:29 pm
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Why would people be jealous of kollel people? What is there to be jealous of?
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questioner
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Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:31 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | | Sorry, but dollars and cents, there is no difference at all between tax deductions and welfare. By default, you should be paying a certain percentage of your money to the government as taxes. Just because someone lobbied that you get to take depreciation for real estate (if you own real estate as a business) does not make this any less welfare than WIC. Or deductions for local, state, and property taxes. You don't necessarily deserve to keep your money, at least the government doesn't think so. |
This may be a radically conservative notion, but I operate from the perspective that by default, what one earns is theirs. Taxes are a necessary evil to keep society functioning and everyone must pay whatever they are legally required to pay. However, the money is being taken away from the one who earned it and given to the government. If politics deems that mortgage interest is tax deductible, the home owner keeps a slightly bigger share of his salary.
OTOH, government subsidies is money going from the rest of society to someone who didn't earn it. That may be for a worthwhile good cause that should be subsidized, but the money is being transferred to one who didn't earn it.
The general rule in monetary matters is that one who owns something has the upper hand, and the burden of proof is on the one who wants to take it away. Not that by default one's income belongs to the government and he has to justify keeping a portion for himself.
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Mommyg8
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Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:34 pm
| questioner wrote: | This may be a radically conservative notion, but I operate from the perspective that by default, what one earns is theirs. Taxes are a necessary evil to keep society functioning and everyone must pay whatever they are legally required to pay. However, the money is being taken away from the one who earned it and given to the government. If politics deems that mortgage interest is tax deductible, the home owner keeps a slightly bigger share of his salary.
OTOH, government subsidies is money going from the rest of society to someone who didn't earn it. That may be for a worthwhile good cause that should be subsidized, but the money is being transferred to one who didn't earn it.
The general rule in monetary matters is that one who owns something has the upper hand, and the burden of proof is on the one who wants to take it away. Not that by default one's income belongs to the government and he has to justify keeping a portion for himself. |
So are you against WIC, food stamps, and medicaid on principle? Or is it just Lakewood families that don't deserve to get these "subsidies"?
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Mommyg8
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Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:36 pm
| shyshira wrote: | you can't get social security retirement benefits if you haven't paid in anything. I didn't say anything about number of years worked (I think you need 40 quarters?)
and SSI is different. lol? |
40 quarters is not a lot. And you are certainly not getting back what you put in.
SSI you can get from birth (and SSI is now a nice percentage of Social Security being paid out). Remove SSI and all the funding problems for Social Security would be solved.
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southernbubby
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Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:43 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | Jkl, check the statistics, currently 40% of children being born in the United States of America today are born to single mothers. What percentage of those mothers do you think are receiving some form of welfare? Why are you not worried about their lifestyle choices? Why are you so fixated on the drain of Lakewood kollel families (and a lot of them don't receive that many benefits, either) who are a tiny, tiny percentage of American families, and not on the drain of women who have children when they know there is no father around to help support? Why is it ok for them to live on one income (the single mother's), but it's not okay for a kollel family to live on one income? And if you will tell me that the average kollel family has eight kids - no way. The average kollel couple is 28, and has two to three kids, max. The vast, vast majority.
And I have news for you, the current system is DESIGNED to help the single mothers. I just read a book by Barbara Ehrenreich (I read everything), and she explained that the liberal viewpoint is that the government should replace husbands as the second wage earner, so that women should not have to get married, or be stuck in marriage. Her reasoning was that most marriages are bad anyway, so women are much better off being single. And the government should subsidize. And if you think this is not the reality, today, then you have your head in a bubble, too. |
All those single moms are the saving grace for the frum community because as long as the government wants to support them, they will want to support us. The single moms are notorious for not voting and the frum community usually votes Republican so it doesn't really look related to getting votes, even if that is one of the feel good incentives for voting Democrat. I am not sure what is in it for the Liberals but we shouldn't complain about that part of the liberal agenda because the frum community does need the help.
I can understand the resentment of society, however, because most people don't equate tax rebates or deductions with receiving a monthly welfare check because the person can't earn a living. The tax payer still pays plenty of taxes and if offering the tax payer a break will get his vote, then it is basically a pay off. Trump offered lower taxes to corporations,so now we call it corporate welfare but that is how they are paid for their vote.
And that dude with the crazy sign is probably just ticking people off and not really influencing anyone but the frum community needs to hope that there is never a change in the entitlement system because sometimes guys like that get others involved and with enough clout, they could make it harder, chas v'sholem for large families to get benefits. Hashem runs the world and at the moment, we need to believe that government money is Heaven sent and meant for frum families to survive on but there is no guarantee that liberals will get back in power and conservatives really don't want to subsidize single moms and large families.
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southernbubby
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Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:45 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | 40 quarters is not a lot. And you are certainly not getting back what you put in.
SSI you can get from birth (and SSI is now a nice percentage of Social Security being paid out). Remove SSI and all the funding problems for Social Security would be solved. |
Someone would end up with a very paltry monthly amount; certainly not enough to live on, if they only worked for a few years.
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questioner
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Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:52 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | | So are you against WIC, food stamps, and medicaid on principle? Or is it just Lakewood families that don't deserve to get these "subsidies"? |
I don't really belong on this thread because I'm not debating WIC, foodstamps or Medicaid. I'm just challenging the equivalency between accepting government aid and accepting tax deductions.
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Mommyg8
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Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:54 pm
| southernbubby wrote: |
I can understand the resentment of society, however, because most people don't equate tax rebates or deductions with receiving a monthly welfare check because the person can't earn a living. The tax payer still pays plenty of taxes and if offering the tax payer a break will get his vote, then it is basically a pay off. Trump offered lower taxes to corporations,so now we call it corporate welfare but that is how they are paid for their vote. |
Can you explain what you mean by the bolded? A monthly welfare check?
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shyshira
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Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:59 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | 40 quarters is not a lot. And you are certainly not getting back what you put in.
SSI you can get from birth (and SSI is now a nice percentage of Social Security being paid out). Remove SSI and all the funding problems for Social Security would be solved. |
I'm not sure what you are saying here. I was responding to another poster who was wondering if you can get social security retirement benefits if you don't pay in.
Per this website here https://www.ssa.gov/ssi/ SSI is not funded by the 6.2% Social Security payroll tax.
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southernbubby
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Thu, Dec 07 2017, 8:00 pm
| questioner wrote: | | I don't really belong on this thread because I'm not debating WIC, foodstamps or Medicaid. I'm just challenging the equivalency between accepting government aid and accepting tax deductions. |
I also don't equate the two either. Tax deductions are promised to us in order to get our votes. We pay with our votes. If we didn't have those deductions, society might be even more resentful of people who get benefits because of the amount paid in taxes. I am also not sure, however, that giving big tax breaks to corporations will lead to more jobs or that it will help the economy for anyone other than the wealthy. Someone obviously pays for those tax breaks.
I don't think that frum people are any less deserving than others who receive benefits but I am not sure that we can equate Kollel with getting a useless degree that won't lead to a job. The useless degree is not paid for by the government because the student loans can't be defaulted on.
As long as benefits are available, frum people should have them but the availability could change.
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shyshira
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Thu, Dec 07 2017, 8:04 pm
| southernbubby wrote: | | Someone would end up with a very paltry monthly amount; certainly not enough to live on, if they only worked for a few years. |
agreed. but if they didn't work at all - they would receive no Social Security retirement benefit at all (unless from a spouse...) I was addressing this
| southernbubby wrote: |
If a person paid Social Security all the years that he worked, and that is claimed by the worker when he retires, then why would that be considered a form of welfare? I am not sure what happens when someone never paid Social Security such as if they were unemployed all of their life, |
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southernbubby
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Thu, Dec 07 2017, 8:04 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | | Can you explain what you mean by the bolded? A monthly welfare check? |
How is TANF given? Other forms of benefits have either a card, or WIC coupons, or money paid to a landlord or vouchers for schools. Maybe some forms of benefits can be direct deposit. It doesn't have to be a check but unless America is going to become a totally socialist country, there will be people who don't want to see an increase in their taxes to pay for benefit programs for long term recipients.
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Mommyg8
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Thu, Dec 07 2017, 8:05 pm
| southernbubby wrote: | I also don't equate the two either. Tax deductions are promised to us in order to get our votes. We pay with our votes. If we didn't have those deductions, society might be even more resentful of people who get benefits because of the amount paid in taxes. I am also not sure, however, that giving big tax breaks to corporations will lead to more jobs or that it will help the economy for anyone other than the wealthy. Someone obviously pays for those tax breaks.
I don't think that frum people are any less deserving than others who receive benefits but I am not sure that we can equate Kollel with getting a useless degree that won't lead to a job. The useless degree is not paid for by the government because the student loans can't be defaulted on.
As long as benefits are available, frum people should have them but the availability could change. |
The government pays towards degrees through FAFSA, and states have their own formulas how they help college students. And aren't community colleges and state colleges at least partially funded by various governments?
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Mommyg8
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Thu, Dec 07 2017, 8:06 pm
| southernbubby wrote: | | How is TANF given? Other forms of benefits have either a card, or WIC coupons, or money paid to a landlord or vouchers for schools. Maybe some forms of benefits can be direct deposit. It doesn't have to be a check but unless America is going to become a totally socialist country, there will be people who don't want to see an increase in their taxes to pay for benefit programs for long term recipients. |
Right. So you equate welfare with TANF? We were having this argument a bit upthread.
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Mommyg8
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Thu, Dec 07 2017, 8:19 pm
| Fox wrote: | You're inverting the cart and the horse, I believe.
There is no tremendous outpouring of anti-Semitism created by kollel families receiving assistance. The vast majority of the country doesn't have a clue about what "kollel" is.
Rather, non-Jews in communities with large frum populations have various reasons for resenting Jews. Unfortunately, some Jews themselves dislike observant or at least Yeshivish Jews. Given those prejudices, they then focus on the "welfare" argument to make their case, despite the fact that kollel families are a miniscule minority of a minority.
If someone is sincere about concern over government resources, then they will be equally concerned by other examples of government's good intentions gone awry. But when their goal is really to argue about kollel, they are remarkably uninterested in such discussions.
If you're part of the Yeshivish community and want to argue about kollel, there's what to be said on both sides. But the thesis that non-Jewish resentment is caused by reliance on government programs by kollel families simply doesn't hold water. |
Thank you fox, for reliably being the one voice of sanity.
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