Lakewood offensive sign?

↑ jkl ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 5:50 pm

Fox wrote:

You're inverting the cart and the horse, I believe.

There is no tremendous outpouring of anti-Semitism created by kollel families receiving assistance. The vast majority of the country doesn't have a clue about what "kollel" is.

Rather, non-Jews in communities with large frum populations have various reasons for resenting Jews. Unfortunately, some Jews themselves dislike observant or at least Yeshivish Jews. Given those prejudices, they then focus on the "welfare" argument to make their case, despite the fact that kollel families are a miniscule minority of a minority.

If someone is sincere about concern over government resources, then they will be equally concerned by other examples of government's good intentions gone awry. But when their goal is really to argue about kollel, they are remarkably uninterested in such discussions.

If you're part of the Yeshivish community and want to argue about kollel, there's what to be said on both sides. But the thesis that non-Jewish resentment is caused by reliance on government programs by kollel families simply doesn't hold water.

I beg to differ again.

Most non-Jews (Americans) generally have the let-live attitude, they don't really put in much effort into liking or not-liking people who don't really cross their paths. They do get upset though when they realize how our setup is based on milking government funds, changing local laws to benefit ourselves only, etc. They do get riled up when we step on their toes - which is understandable as well.

Additionally, if you focus on our local areas,, where there are very large concentrations of Jews, then the kollel families are not in the minority. And the kollel factor is not the only one that plays into the welfare system. Its a combined mix of the kollel system, lack of education for our boys and our high standard of living that all plays in. If you look at the welfare numbers in our local areas, they are astronomically higher than the average town/city. What does that tell you?

The thesis is that non-Jewish resentment is caused by a multitude of our behaviors. Kollel system, lack of consideration of our neighbors, forcing changes unto communities, large demand of public funds and so on.

↑ jkl ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 5:54 pm

cnc wrote:

It may be middle class for the average American but most Jewosh families would have a hard time getting by with that amount pretax after six tuitions, housing expenses and food .

So would you be ok with all the Muslims applying for welfare so they can fill their Islam requirements? Or the Hindus, or the Buddhists?

I don't understand the thought behind that the rest of the world should be paying for our religious obligations.

Last edited by jkl on Thu, Dec 07 2017, 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ jkl

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 6:09 pm

Fox wrote:

Precisely. Given the number of kollels in the U.S., including a large enrollment at BMG, I calculated that it's almost impossible for the number of kollel families in the U.S. to exceed 10,000-12,000. If anything, I think that's an overly generous number. If someone has a verified figure or estimate, I'd be interested in knowing it.

If we rely on the Pew Organization's estimate of 4.2 million Jews in the U.S. and their estimate of 10 percent identifying as Orthodox, that means that there are approximately 420,000 Orthodox Jews. That means approximately 35,000 would represent 1/12 of the total. The entire population of Lakewood is only 60,000 -- including women, children, non-Jews, and non-observant Jews.

We've beat the kollel horse to death here on Imamother, and everyone usually ends up agreeing that it's good for some; not good for others; and that kollel life shouldn't be motivated by social pressure.

As for the guy with the sign, the fact that he appeared in Monsey suggests that his unhappiness has little to do with kollel or government benefits.

If you apply the focus to the individual towns separately, specifically in those towns where there are many welfare recipients, the math works out differently.

As of 2012, BMG had 6500 enrollees and the population of Lakewood has 60,000 individuals. Lets say the average family size is 8 - that gives you 7500 families - Or the average family size is 6 (10,000 families). And even if you remove all the singles from the 6500 count of students, you will still be way above the 1/12 mark.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 6:25 pm

jkl wrote:

I didn't say "plumb" job, I said they get a job (decent pay) AND set up a lifestyle that works with their income.

We set up a system, that offers no pay or very low pay for it AND set up a lifestyle that absolutely does NOT work with the parnassah setup.

Can anyone really come out and say that our system works?

I just came back to this thread, and I didn't read all the way down. If I'm saying something that was already said I apologize.

I'm going to try to say this in a nice way... no, I'm not.

I don't think you have any idea how the world works today. In which universe does graduating with a degree in humanities or liberal arts or theater or whatever get you ANY kind of job? The vast majority of degrees are in completely useless fields. But the government gives government loans, etc. anyways. Or parents pay for it.

And yes, the system works. Very well, obviously, or there wouldn't be so much jealousy.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 6:27 pm

shyshira wrote:

Social Security payments to the government is more like a mandatory insurance premium - which you can 'cash in on' if you (or your spouse or child) survive to your retirement!

A person can't claim the retirement benefit, if he has have never worked and paid into it (unless the claim is for a spouse). Disability payments may different.

SSI is different? lol.

And a person CAN get social security even if they only worked a few years - surely not enough to have funded two decades of retirement.

↑ shyshira ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 6:29 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

https://www.payscale.com/colle.....age=3

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 6:34 pm

questioner wrote:

There's a pretty big difference between tax deductions and all other forms of welfare being discussed. By default, the money that I earned should belong to me. Society requires taxes for various purposes, so I have to give some of it away, but the baseline is that it is mine. (Hamotzi mei'chaveiro alav ha'rayah in yeshivish terminology)

OTOH, farm subsidies / food stamps / student aid are all the government giving me money and the burden of proof relies on me to prove that I deserve it.

Sorry, but dollars and cents, there is no difference at all between tax deductions and welfare. By default, you should be paying a certain percentage of your money to the government as taxes. Just because someone lobbied that you get to take depreciation for real estate (if you own real estate as a business) does not make this any less welfare than WIC. Or deductions for local, state, and property taxes. You don't necessarily deserve to keep your money, at least the government doesn't think so.

↑ cnc ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 6:36 pm

jkl wrote:

Absolutely not. I am just pointing out to that poster that I don't consider 110k for a family of 8 a very comfortable income. Nothing to do with welfare programs.

↑ shyshira ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 6:37 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

by default you *should* be paying whatever the law says owe for taxes.

That has nothing to do with welfare.

↑ mommyla ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 6:57 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I agree with you on the humanities degree. There are loads of memes online about English majors learning to say "Would you like fries with that?"

And the system works... sort of. For some people. Not for the people killing themselves (some literally dropping dead from stress) to support their children because that's what's expected. Not for the people who cannot make ends meet and whose husbands will not or cannot work due to the "system."

Who exactly is jealous? The non-Jews? I don't think so. The non-kollel people? I don't think so either. I think everyone is concerned about the burden on society and the fact that the kollel system is slowly (or not so slowly) imploding, leaving our children in the lurch because they've been conditioned to believe that working is not quite so admirable and their skills are sorely lacking.

Yes, the non-Jews are angry, and it's not just because of the government benefits. (See my post a couple of pages back about why they resent the explosive growth in Lakewood and why residents of Toms River and Jackson are worried about it happening to them.) Obviously I'm not condoning this lunatic's sign, or any other acts of hatred, I'm just trying to explain that their fears are not unfounded and their concerns not unjustified. Can you agree to that?

↑ benny ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:04 pm

jkl wrote:

A very large chunk of those ppl are bochurim, not kollel ppl.

Last edited by benny on Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:06 pm

mommyla wrote:

mommyla, I am going to ask you a serious question, and please answer seriously. Where do you see that the kollel system is slowly imploding? Who do you know that is literally dropping dead from the stress of living a kollel lifestyle? Is there this huge hidden population that I don't know about?

I think the non-kollel people are jealous. I hear it over and over again on imamother, I just do think so. Maybe I'm wrong. I often am.

And it's one thing to gripe privately over our problems, real or perceived, and quite another to slander entire Jewish communities on an open forum.

The non-Jews are angry because the perception is that the Jews will take all their tax money, and give nothing back. They assume that the reason the Lakewood school district is in the red is because Lakewood residents are not paying enough taxes. Neither of those things are true, but posts such as yours don't do anything to change their perception.

↑ Mommyg8 ↓

Thu, Dec 07 2017, 7:09 pm

mommyla wrote:

Also, Mommyg8, remember how you reacted to the word "welfare" - conjure up the image of the person or family who was on "welfare" when you were a kid. That's how many, many non-Jews (and Jews too) imagine the Jews to be when they hear that we're "all" on welfare.

That's my point. When the we say that a large percentage of Lakewood families are on welfare, a lot of people assume it means what is now called TANF (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families - I assume the word temporary is there as joke, lol).

I just asked my husband, actually, when he walked in. As you can guess, he's around the same age as me, you know, we're from Noach's teyvah, and he said the same thing I did, that welfare means a monthly check. Like I said, maybe it's a generational thing, I don't know.