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Forum
-> Parenting our children
-> Preschoolers
Do you let your 5 year old daughter wear pants?
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| Total Votes : 141 |
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amother
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 Sun, Dec 03 2017, 1:30 pm
| Squishy wrote: | | Some will never put on leggings even for warmth. My daughter's school doesn't allow this. Better the girls freeze waiting for the bus. |
I know plenty who hold by ONLY tights. That's their custom. <shrug> I'm just glad it isn't my custom, because I would be seriously miserable in the winter. I guess any future daughters of mine will have to suffer through school rules:( Can they at least wear nice looking boots?
Come to think of it, skirts were mandatory when I was a kid, and leggings weren't really a thing. I wore wool/cotton tights. I suppose it's not so different than leggings. 🤔
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dancingqueen
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 1:33 pm
| amother wrote: | Because a man is not allowed to make a Bracha if he sees a girl that age not tznius, according to many poskim. I asked when my daughter turned 3 and was told usually from age 3. But if the kid is tiny then he said we can wait until 5. My kid is now almost 5 and looks like a 3 year old...
Besides she doesn't do somersault all day. We teach her that when she sits on the floor to make sure her dress is down. I do dresses and not skirts. Just because dresses are much neater. At age 6 or 7 we try to have her knees covered all the time. |
Sorry but this seems to take it as a given that a man will find a 3 year old in pants too s-xually distracting to make a kosher bracha and that idea really bothers me.
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amother
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 1:37 pm
| Squishy wrote: | | It is not so strange in the schools that have these rules. Strange would be leggings since they aren't done at home either. No one wants to be different than their peers in any event. |
I used to wear leggings that are shorter than the knee with tights together for warmth. Didn't stick out of my skirt or Went strait into my boots. Nobody knew about it.
Or I wore thick tights with an extra pair of warm socks in my boots.
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 1:39 pm
| amother wrote: | I know plenty who hold by ONLY tights. That's their custom. <shrug> I'm just glad it isn't my custom, because I would be seriously miserable in the winter. I guess any future daughters of mine will have to suffer through school rules:( Can they at least wear nice looking boots?
Come to think of it, skirts were mandatory when I was a kid, and leggings weren't really a thing. I wore wool/cotton tights. I suppose it's not so different than leggings. 🤔 |
I agree that thick tights serve the same purpose for warmth. IMO tights are not as tzniuz as leggings for activities, that's just my opinion.
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amother
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 1:43 pm
| dancingqueen wrote: | | Sorry but this seems to take it as a given that a man will find a 3 year old in pants too s-xually distracting to make a kosher bracha and that idea really bothers me. |
Why do people on this sight seem to think that tznius halacha applies only if it's s-xually distracting to a man. Other wise it's ok to be not tzniusdig. Is a an ugly women allowed to be not tznius because no man will be attracted to her? Tznius halacha still applies. You don't need to wait until a man becomes distracted by it. A man is not allowed to make a Bracha while seeing a women not tznius. Even if he is not turned on..
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LovesHashem
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 5:27 pm
| Squishy wrote: | | Some will never put on leggings even for warmth. My daughter's school doesn't allow this. Better the girls freeze waiting for the bus. |
Most BY's in Israel don't. Doesn't stop anyone...it gets so cold here many girls wear pajama pants to school, the fleece ones.
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 5:31 pm
| LovesHashem wrote: | | Most BY's in Israel don't. Doesn't stop anyone...it gets so cold here many girls wear pajama pants to school, the fleece ones. |
Again, we are back to what the peers are doing. DD would wear leggings to school - probably black if her friends were also doing it.
I feel strongly about skirts lifting when doing sports. It never stopped me from activities. I throw on leggings underneath. If she doesn't want to, she can wait on the sidelines.
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amother
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 5:36 pm
| amother wrote: | | Why do people on this sight seem to think that tznius halacha applies only if it's s-xually distracting to a man. Other wise it's ok to be not tzniusdig. Is a an ugly women allowed to be not tznius because no man will be attracted to her? Tznius halacha still applies. You don't need to wait until a man becomes distracted by it. A man is not allowed to make a Bracha while seeing a women not tznius. Even if he is not turned on.. |
Thank you. Being tznius has it's own merit -- it's not just about relations. And for those who hold that children start keeping mitzvos at 3... well, that's when you keep mitzvos. I don't understand why people get so upset about little girls wearing tights/leggings and skirts.
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amother
Taupe
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 5:41 pm
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I only have boys, but from what I understand, it's an issue of when does chinuch start in this particular matter. I've heard some say 3 and some say 6. If I had a girl, I guess I'd ask my Rav which way we hold. I have a feeling, just based on our circles, that it would be 6.
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amother
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 7:30 pm
| Squishy wrote: | | Some will never put on leggings even for warmth. My daughter's school doesn't allow this. Better the girls freeze waiting for the bus. |
I see no problem with leggings but if the girls are cold what's wrong with knit tights and boots?
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amother
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 7:38 pm
| amother wrote: | | I see no problem with leggings but if the girls are cold what's wrong with knit tights and boots? |
I don't think there is a problem with tights for anyone. I don't know about boots, but I would HOPE they would be allowed!!!
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TeachersNotebook
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 9:09 pm
Can someone please enlighten me why leggings are less tznius than tights?
I have a 4yo girl, and we are modern yeshivish. I didn't think to ask our rabbi, because I thought anything we do at this age is just "for chinuch," and is not halachically binding on her. Going with that philosophy, I introduced tznius as she started gaining more self awareness - somewhere in her 3s. My introductions definitely gave her more awareness than she would've had by herself as well. Now, she only wears skirts and dresses. Her shoulders are covered. I'm not medakdek on the full tznius specifications of elbows and knees because I feel this would be lost on her at this age and therefore it's just needlessly confining. So I'm hoping we're gradually building up to full observance with meaning and positivity (my definition of chinuch).
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amother
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 9:30 pm
| TeachersNotebook wrote: | Can someone please enlighten me why leggings are less tznius than tights?
I have a 4yo girl, and we are modern yeshivish. I didn't think to ask our rabbi, because I thought anything we do at this age is just "for chinuch," and is not halachically binding on her. Going with that philosophy, I introduced tznius as she started gaining more self awareness - somewhere in her 3s. My introductions definitely gave her more awareness than she would've had by herself as well. Now, she only wears skirts and dresses. Her shoulders are covered. I'm not medakdek on the full tznius specifications of elbows and knees because I feel this would be lost on her at this age and therefore it's just needlessly confining. So I'm hoping we're gradually building up to full observance with meaning and positivity (my definition of chinuch). |
I don't think anyone thinks leggings are less tznius than tights -- assuming leggings are worn with socks. I think it is just a minhag by some to wear always tights. Thought maybe there is an idea that leggings and socks could separate and show skin? I hope someone who holds by only tights will come tell us:) I know Lubavitcher's hold only tights, and they start preparing to keep tznius (and other mitzvos) before three -- but the kids sometimes wear leggings under nightgowns for extra tznius. I do the same but for warmth:) I told my Lubavitcher Rebitzen about my leggings and wool knee socks, and she just said she couldn't imagine putting on so many things! lol I likewise can't imagine always wearing tights:)
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SuperWify
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 9:46 pm
| amother wrote: | Why?
(We Brits actually don't wear pants anyway - for us that refers to mens' underwear.) |
Yes that true! I once told my English fil - early in my marriage- that I bought my DH new pants from primark and they were so cheap. 
He couldn’t understand why I thought that was cheap for underwear.
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 11:10 pm
| amother wrote: | | I don't think anyone thinks leggings are less tznius than tights -- assuming leggings are worn with socks. I think it is just a minhag by some to wear always tights. Thought maybe there is an idea that leggings and socks could separate and show skin? I hope someone who holds by only tights will come tell us:) I know Lubavitcher's hold only tights, and they start preparing to keep tznius (and other mitzvos) before three -- but the kids sometimes wear leggings under nightgowns for extra tznius. I do the same but for warmth:) I told my Lubavitcher Rebitzen about my leggings and wool knee socks, and she just said she couldn't imagine putting on so many things! lol I likewise can't imagine always wearing tights:) |
Maybe leggings are more showy or maybe they are too close to pants. In any event, the girls who wear leggings are considered not as fine.
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dancingqueen
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 11:35 pm
| amother wrote: | | Why do people on this sight seem to think that tznius halacha applies only if it's s-xually distracting to a man. Other wise it's ok to be not tzniusdig. Is a an ugly women allowed to be not tznius because no man will be attracted to her? Tznius halacha still applies. You don't need to wait until a man becomes distracted by it. A man is not allowed to make a Bracha while seeing a women not tznius. Even if he is not turned on.. |
So then what’s the issue with the man making a bracha in front of a woman or girl if it’s not s-xual distraction?
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amother
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 1:31 am
| dancingqueen wrote: | | So then what’s the issue with the man making a bracha in front of a woman or girl if it’s not s-xual distraction? |
Honestly, I never thought of tznius that way. We learned in school about a mitzvah called tznius. And we are tznius for the sake of being tznius. We were never taught that tznius only applies if a man will be turned on. We learned rules of tznius and how we are supposed to be dressed. What way of dressing is considered tznius and what way of dressing is not considered tznius.
Some examples are, elbows need to be covered. No tight or fitted clothin. No big open neckline.
Skirt covering the knee. Tights that are not see through that you cannot see the color of the skin. And so on...We learned that these are tznius halachas. We also learned that if a man sees a women that's not dressed tzniusdig then he is not allowed to say a Bracha, Daven, or learn...we never learned that these rules apply only if a man gets s-xually distracted. Obviously every man is different. But there is a list of tznius guidelines that we follow. And it doesn't change based on how it makes a man feel.
Probably every community learns it differently. How did you learn it?
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LovesHashem
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 4:26 am
| Squishy wrote: | | Maybe leggings are more showy or maybe they are too close to pants. In any event, the girls who wear leggings are considered not as fine. |
Because in the RW world, you need to cover your full leg, and often times people will wear ankle socks and leggings and skin will show between them.
When I wear leggings, I do it with boots so you wouldn't see the patch, and anyways, it bothers me that the cold gets to this tiny strip of skin, so usually I wear socks that are a bit higher than ankle, they get 2-3 inches higher. But again, I don't have to with boots, it's only for my comfort.
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LovesHashem
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 4:43 am
| dancingqueen wrote: | | So then what’s the issue with the man making a bracha in front of a woman or girl if it’s not s-xual distraction? |
That's a good question...this may or not be the answer.
Amother above posted some really good points, I have a few more I want to make. When we learned tzniyus we learned it the way they did. In many places in Israel, girls are unaware that boys are even attracted to them. Although yes, tzniyus is not taught correctly in other ways oftentimes, at least here, girls are tzniyus for themselves or Hashem, it's never about BOYS.
Now, in Israel a big concept in tzniyus is being mechubad, looking respactable. In RW society here, girls are not wearing long skirts or short skirts, only skirts in the middle. Down to the floor skirts, long hair, jean material, hoodies, words, etc are not considered respectable. Now, when I was in high school I was VERY frustrated with this idea, I moved from the USA for high school and I didn't understand this concept. Tzniyus meant covering your elbows, knees, etc. What the heck did it have to do with being respectable? What did that mean?!
Then in seminary we were taught the real meaning of tzniyus with a halacha teacher who is also a big rav and posek, we went all the way from the beginiging, from the FIRST time the word tzniyus is mentioned in tanach till the halachos of today, and explained it from inside the tanach.
The first time or second time...don't remember tzniyus is mentioned I believe it is talking about in wartime, how bnei yisroel would go to the bathroom as privately as possible, even on the battle feid, and cover up the hole they went in, and THIS is what Hashem calls "Tzniyus". According to this explanation, we understand tzniyus to mean being respectable, acting like a mentsch, a princess, a princes, looking refined, being refined, acting refined in all aspects of life.
So based on this information, a girl who is wearing pants may not look refined, a skirt or a dress with tights looks MORE refined on a girl or woman than pants or leggings. Even on a 3 year old, it gives off a more refined look. Would you dress a 3 year old girl in leggings or pants for a wedding? No, exactly my point.
So when a man is saying a bracha, he is talking to Hashem, if she isn't dressed refined, that he shouldn't be looking at her while saying the bracha.
I do NOT know if this is a explanation, I just came to this conclusion with my logic and knowledge of tzniyus. I never thought about it until I read the question, thank you for giving me the oppurtnunity to think more
In any case another answer may be, Hashem wants us to teach chinuch to young children, exactly what should the cutoff age be? A man can't look after a woman turns 5? 10? I mean many years ago, girls were married off at three you know...
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