Children committing terrible crimes

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↑ Rivka

Thu, Jun 02 2005, 3:32 pm

I meant what 1sttimer said, just couldn't think of how to say it.
I am not saying to show them all that stuff, that doesn't mean they are not sheltered. But they should know stuff is out there and not everyone is perfect and the world isn't a perfect place.
As I said before motek murder isn't the norm and if a child saw something like that in real they would get him a psychiatrist.
I wouldn't show my child rubbish on TV, does that mean he's sheltered? I guess he is coz he;s a toddler, but an older child? No it means there are boundaries. When I talk about sheltered I mean to the extreme. Otherwise there is a balance and you wouldn't have kids having major psychological set backs if they see a newspaper.

↑ 1stimer ↓

Thu, Jun 02 2005, 9:55 pm

Quote:

a sheltered child doesn't necessarily have NO IDEA of what's "out there." He might know very well (after all, he walks down the street and encounters pritzus (immodesty) and be taught to avoid it.

Not if they are living in meah shearim.

↑ 1stimer ↓

Thu, Jun 02 2005, 9:57 pm

Quote:

so that if a child is brought up properly, he/she doesn't haveto be aware of everything out there in order for him to be able to handle it.

of course the child doesn't have to be aware of EVERYTHING, but that they know that it exists.

↑ chavamom ↓

Thu, Jun 02 2005, 10:38 pm

I recently had an interesting experience. We in practice, don't get secular newspapers (though my husband and I read US News and World Report), but don't consider ourselves to shelter our kids to an extreme amount. And we certainly try to answer questions that do come up honestly.

So I took a new job with a nursing agency to fill in between my old job and the camp job I'm taking for the summer. It is pretty routine in most nursing jobs (NOT the camp job) that they require you to take a drug screen. It turned out that the lab I went to to take it was closed and I had to pick one of my sons up from school (age 11) and take him with me in order to get to the other lab before it closed (this was after trying to do it 2 times previously and only have 7 days to do it - DON'T ASK). So my son says 'what kind of test are you taking?' I told him that most jobs in the medical field require you to take a drug screen. He said 'what are drugs?' I was kind of shocked. I had no idea that he had never heard of such a thing. I told him there are people in the world who will take medications not because they are sick, but because they want to feel good, sort of like being drunk. His eyes got really wide and he said "Why are they making YOU take this test?!?!?' I told him that unfortunately when people have easy access to certain medications, sometimes there are people that will use take them and no one wants a doctor or nurse who is 'under the influence' taking care of pts. He thought about it and said 'that is really crazy'.

I'm glad we were able to have the talk, but wow! Even I didn't realize my kids were so sheltered. But truth is, I'd rather he found out about such a thing from me than from a classmate or worse!

gryp ↓

Fri, Jun 03 2005, 7:00 am

Quote:

of course the child doesn't have to be aware of EVERYTHING, but that they know that it exists.

and when exactly does this "being aware" take place? is there certain ages where the "unsheltering" begins so that the child shouldnt be (ch"v) sheltered?
honestly I see no reason to tell a child about the horrible things that go on in this world. when he/she comes across it eventually, then THAT is the time to acknowledge that it happens and answer any questions about it.
exactly how it worked in chavamom's story- the child became aware at a certain age, and now he knows. but I really think there is no need to discuss it with him before. I dont hold by putting things in a childs head to think about unless they are good things.

I dont remember when I found out what drugs are but ever since I could read, I saw on every candybox: "say no to drugs." I had no clue what drugs were, but I just knew I should say no to them.

about Meah Shearim, maybe im wrong but I would think that the people that grow up there, stay there. they wont be seeing anything of the outside world, which is why I dont think its right to bring them into this discussion.

↑ 1stimer

Fri, Jun 03 2005, 7:15 am

What about when the guy from meah shearim has to go to ben yehuda to get a reduction for his arnona? All of a sudden he sees girls walking around half undressed. My point is that even the ppl from meah shearim are going to confront the less nice parts of the world somedays. And who's to say what impact it will have on him then? And who is going to guarantee that the parents will be there when he encounters it and are able to give the child the support and right perspective for it, as in chavamom's case.

Nobody (afaik) is saying go ahead and expose ur children to everything, but on the otherhand being too sheltered has its dangers too.

↑ gryp ↓

Fri, Jun 03 2005, 7:31 am

I dont know, I cant tell you that I know much about the rate of rebelliousness or shock from being too sheltered coming from Meah Shearim because I know nothing about them. ive only been there a few times, thats it. but I dont think its right to talk about the way of life they have chosen here.

↑ AweSumThenSum

Fri, Jun 03 2005, 7:32 am

I think the best we can hope for is that we train our children the right way and by that I mean that we should equip them with the education and confidence - spiritual and physical - so that they can properly handle each and every situation they encounter, using the tools of their childhood. and most important of all, I think parents tend to neglect to instill in their children the vitality of having a mentor or rabbi or rebbetzin with whom they should discuss issues that they grapple with. I am most impressed when a parent tells her/his child "I dont know, but I'll find out for u" or "I'll ask the rav, or I'll have totty ask the rav". children need to know at an early age that parents are not perfect and that parents grapple with their own issues as well, and that it isn't a sign of weakness (not spiritually and not emotionally), but rather a sign of personal strength to ask s/o else for advice or answers.
phew!! that felt good!! have urselves a great shabbos.

IndyMom

Fri, Jun 03 2005, 7:48 am

I shelter my kids. I was upset that my babysitter reacted to bugs outside in front of them - she kept saying, eww gross there are bugs there. I told her later, my kids don't need to know that bugs are gross and scary. Kids will see bugs and not care, but if someone teaches them to be scared or grossed out, then they will (same with the irrational fear that parents pass to their children that dogs are scary). Same with other worldly things like immorality. They might notice it but then get a explanation and move past it. If we react unconstructively, they will react the same. If we ignore it then other people might teach them hwo to react (bad or good), but if we teach them how to react to these situations, then they will react the way we teach them. Does this make sense?

↑ smile ↓

Fri, Jun 03 2005, 8:13 am

It all depends also where you live. I grew up in Switzerland so I had to know more things earlier on. But also you never know what your children will hear or see so I think they should know it from you. They might hear all the wrong things later on. My dh told me what he heared in Yeshiva was so wrong and he thought it was right because he never knew anything.

↑ sarahd

Fri, Jun 03 2005, 10:15 am

SLB wrote:

It all depends also where you live. I grew up in Switzerland so I had to know more things earlier on.

So interesting that you say that. I live in CH and I find that the children here are much more innocent than American children. They are up to where America was about 10 or 15 years ago (although catching up quick Sad

)

avigayil

Sat, Jun 04 2005, 9:41 pm

Hearing about these stories sets shivers in me.
The attacks in Monsey pretty much show the cruelty of the outside world.
In Willliamsburg though, it saddens me such things happen within our own community Crying

It also seems that human life gets cheaper each day. I really want Moshiach to come soon and get us out of this mess!

supermom ↓

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 3:34 am

AweSumThenSum wrote:

11 year old girl pregnant in brooklyn. the father is a 15 year old boy - both ultra orthodox.

if it is true from what someone said here that it was a rape then it wasn't possible for her to get a heter to abort the baby in the first week or two of the pregnancy and isn't eleven too early to become pregnant. and what did they do to this boy? and how is she suppose to take care of this baby it would be a trama for her. okay adoption yes but still to make this girl go through a whole pregnancy it is hard enough for us sometimes a pregnancy how much more so an eleven year old girl whose body is growing every day.

↑ smile ↓

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 3:40 am

maybe now it is like that there. But when I went to sem about 9 years ago (uhh I am getting really old!) I saw a difference between us from switzerland and the others. It was like "what are you talking about"

↑ smile

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 3:42 am

Please no offence to others. That was just what I felt at that time with some others girls

↑ Motek ↓

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 3:44 am

AweSumThenSum wrote:

11 year old girl pregnant in brooklyn. the father is a 15 year old boy - both ultra orthodox.

I won't believe this news item until someone reliable, with firsthand information, or information from someone he/she considers reliable, says it's true

sounds like a good rumor to start in order to scare people

↑ Tefila ↓

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 9:32 am

Motek ever heard of Teen Extreme (a camp for teens, from very frum homes) who, were are on drugs who have been raped and have had abortions etc etc Crying

It does sadly exist, Teens from Boro park, williamsburg, Monsey and all over the tri state area Sad

↑ Motek ↓

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 11:51 am

yes, I have

raped? or hanging out with friends and "going too far?"

↑ Tefila

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 12:00 pm

Quote:

raped? or hanging out with friends and "going too far?"

Well they visited our area last summer sponsered by someone in the communinty. And this is what 2 of the girls there told me. I didn't think I needed to verify it w/h the director Confused

↑ Motek ↓

Sun, Jun 05 2005, 12:05 pm

I'm not saying it's impossible, but from the girls' perspective, they will certainly get more sympathy if they call it rape than if they say they were hanging out with their boyfriend and it went too far Confused

either way - bad news!

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