Men Signing Off on How Their Wives Will Dress / School Reqts

amother

↑ Khaki ↓

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 3:36 pm

debsey wrote:

I apologize about #1, usually schools don't post documents like that online. I wonder if the posting on Crownheights.info was done with the school's consent? If not, my objection stands to reposting it.

The "personal integrity" isn't tznius. It's living up to a code of conduct that the school has requested. People wouldn't need to sign if some parents wouldn't agree to the code of conduct and the dress code before their kids get in, and then cynically violate it once the child has been accepted, knowing full well that the school is unlikely to kick a child out just because the parents aren't following the rules.

Publishing the dress code and the code of conduct, and having both parents sign is just a way of making people acknowledge that they know what is expected of them.

There's a simple solution for people who object. Vote with your feet......

Thank you for your apology re #1. It says a lot about you, and is appreciated.

↑ debsey ↓

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 4:12 pm

amother wrote:

If only...

It's not the school's fault if some members of their parent body live up to the dress code but not the ethical code, follow some halacha but forget the "fifth Shulchan Aruch". The "Bein Adom L'Chavero" part of Orthodoxy should go without saying.

jkl

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 7:18 pm

Excerpt from Rabbi Y. Horowitz on this subject (talking to members of the previous generation):

It is humbling and difficult to come to terms with, let alone say this publicly, but I think that your generation had a far better recipe than ours, though both generations have their successes and failures. You prepared us for secular culture whereas we shelter our children from it. You played offense; we play defense. You celebrated the enrollment of each and every Jewish child to a Mesivta or Beis Yaakov; we send rejection letters. You raised children; we tried to raise gedolim.

Over the past few years, I’ve increasingly felt that the most effective way of reversing the exploding number of kids and adults abandoning Yiddishkeit is to revert to the old-fashioned “Charedi Classic” education my generation was fortunate to receive from yours; and pass on those core values to our children and grandchildren.

http://thebrightbeginnings.com.....hing/

amother

Apricot

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 9:08 pm

I think having the men sign is for all those husbands that want their wives to dress "hot Chani."
I don't see anything extreme about these guidelines.
If people are dressing "improperly" as a result of poor chinuch, why should that be passed down to the next generation. I don't think everything should be blamed on poor chinuch. I think that once someone relaxes a standard, it becomes easier for others to follow suit until the point that we don't know what is right anymore

amother

Pink ↓

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 9:44 pm

Fox wrote:

Perhaps I will be accused of naivete, but I've worked with a ton of schools over the years on their registration and enrollment materials, and I honestly doubt if the school gave the whole men's signature issue that much thought.

In fact, I've alerted a number of schools over the years regarding forms and documents that potentially opened them up to lawsuits -- and in every case, they were blissfully ignorant. "Oh, does that make a difference to anyone? We just copied and pasted it from . . .".

So schools send out materials that are blatantly offensive to many parents and they are so out of touch they don't even notice?

↑ debsey ↓

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 9:48 pm

amother wrote:

So schools send out materials that are blatantly offensive to many parents and they are so out of touch they don't even notice?

The function of the school is to educate people, to foster progression and growth. It's not to be "in touch" with lower standards. Schools are not department stores, who need to cater to their demographic to make a buck. Schools should be leading, not following, their parent body.

↑ marina ↓

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 9:54 pm

debsey wrote:

In what other area do we pay people tens of thousands of dollars - annually- and accept the type of rudeness and intolerance that you are applauding?

If I'm paying my doctor/accountant/landscaper 30,000 per year of my hard-earned dollars, yeah, I might expect them to be in touch with my standards.

Can you imagine if I had no health insurance and paid for every single doctor's visit out of pocket and then my pediatrician had me sign a contract saying I need to make sure my children ate low carb every meal? And if I signed no such thing, my kids would have to leave. Can you even imagine?

↑ marina ↓

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 10:02 pm

debsey wrote:

Everything should "go without saying," but when you speak in this way about the dress code but not the ethics code, it says a lot.

↑ marina ↓

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 10:05 pm

The problem is that in many NYC communities, schools are a seller's market. People are just so happy that the school accepted their kinderlach and will do them the big favor of providing a basic education. If that. So they are willing to pay whatever price the schools demand and say how high when told to jump.

amother

Slategray ↓

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 10:17 pm

marina wrote:

Can I like this a 1000 times

salt

Mon, Jun 05 2017, 10:23 pm

I think it's funny (and I thought that this was your original point actually) that it is a man who wrote the letter. What did this Motty Gurerer person do - he sat down and derived a list of what he thinks women should and shouldn't be wearing?

shevi82

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 1:35 am

DrMom wrote:

What's wrong with leggings? They are basically ultra-thick footless pantyhose.

But whatever. I don't send my kids to schools like this anyway.

That's the point. You don't because it is not your Hashkafa.
I do not see anything extreme with the school having parents sign a what seems to me as standard requirements for a BY type of school.
Both mother and father should sign that they are on the same page.
If they are not they should probably choose another school were they will feel more comfortable.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 2:48 am

amother wrote:

Is this story true? What city is this in? Even if it's true, its waaay out of the norm.

No, I lied for fun.
Paris.
Cool.

Denim: some find it unclassy. Not me.
Leggings: they don't want to start enforcing high shoes and/or socks with it so they say no.

I also don't like rules for adults, but sometimes it's a way to have a certain parents body.

↑ Ruchel

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 3:34 am

salt wrote:

He wrote/signed it, but there may be a tznius mora

saw50st8 ↓

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 5:05 am

marina wrote:

I don't feel bad for parents who willingly choose schools that require this of them. There are plenty of options in NYC that dont' have these restrictions but those parents also look down on the other schools as not good enough, not frum enough, bummy or whatever.

I realize in Lakewood it's a different story but the entire Lakewood school system is such a mess. I don't feel bad for the adults though, just the kids. The adults have other choices and force their kids through traumatic processes.

amother

↑ Amethyst ↓

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 5:59 am

amother wrote:

Can you expand on the 'dressing "improperly"" part - are you referring to new "halachos" being invented every year, that never were a part of yiddishkeit before or something else?

amother

↑ Amethyst ↓

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 6:05 am

shevi82 wrote:

so if I understand correctly - you're saying that a Chassidishe husband and wife, who have been raised in a chassidishe environment and whose children are already in a chassidishe schools need to change their entire way of life, just because they have issues with newly invented rules being implemented every year?

(And the same applies for litvish, yeshivish, and all paths of life...)

amother

↑ Amethyst ↓

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 6:11 am

saw50st8 wrote:

Its not always that parents look down on the other schools. Many times the school system is just very different than how they were raised, or the hashkafah is very different than how their kids are currently being raised as well or the social circles are different too and so on. . Just because a Chassidic or Yeshivish (or other) person has issues with some new school criteria, they shouldn't have to overhaul their entire lifestyle. Rules and guidelines - especially for parents - need to be broad and fair, not rigid down to the last minute detail of the everyday life.