Taking challa as a segula

shalhevet ↓

Tue, Jun 26 2007, 1:41 am

I am just curious.

Has someone asked/ heard from an important rav/ rebbe that we should take challa as a segula? We do mitzvos because they are mitzvos Hashem gave us, not as a segula - as opposed to optional extras like giving extra tzeddaka.

Have you ever heard of a man putting on tefillin as a segula for something? Or does anyone light Shabbos candles as a segula? Once you make the required amount of dough you are chayav to take challa.

I am not trying to bash, just trying to understand if this new 'craze' comes from an important source and should be done, or if it was someone's well-intentioned (but perhaps misguided) idea?

Atali ↓

Tue, Jun 26 2007, 4:15 am

Quote:

Have you ever heard of a man putting on tefillin as a segula for something? Or does anyone light Shabbos candles as a segula? Once you make the required amount of dough you are chayav to take challa.

There are two types of mitzvos asei; there are those which one must do under all circumstances such as putting on tefillin and lighting shabbos candles, and then there are those that are dependent on something, such as that one who owns a house with a roof that people may walk on must construct a fence around it, but one is not obligated to buy a house in order to fulfill the mitzvah of building a fence.

Similarly, one is not obligated to bake a shiur of challah, one may instead buy it from a bakery or bake a smaller amount. Some people choose to davka bake a shiur of challah in order to fulfill the mitzvah as a segulah for something, which is similar to giving extra tzedakah as a segulah for something.

suomynona

Tue, Jun 26 2007, 5:44 am

I went to a challah baking class here, and the rebetzin said that someone asked R' Chaim Kanievsky about it. He said he doesn't know of any source, but that since taking challah is a mitzvah, and 40 is a powerful number, if you are doing that in someone's zchus, it's bound to be a big zchus.
that was always my reasoning anyway. I'm not big on segulos, but I viewed it as doing a mitzva in someone's zchus. can't hurt. The same way people will do any mitzva l'iliu nishmas someone.
That's why I would take challah in someone's zchus much more quickly than I would say perek shira for 40 days. Perek shira isn't a mitzva, so as a "segula" it's debateable, but challah is definiteily a mitzva.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Tue, Jun 26 2007, 5:44 am

That is exactly my point. You are chayav (obligated) to take challa once you've prepared the dough and you are chayav to make a fence if you bought/ built a house with a roof/balcony which people could fall of it. At that point it's not some 'extra' thing but a chiyuv. Do people make a bris for their son as a segula for something else? Do people make kiddush with someone's name in mind? I certainly hope not.

The only thing that makes sense here is baking challas lichvod Shabbos instead of buying them is the 'extra', nothing to do with taking challa.

I'm really curious if anyone heard this segula from someone choshuv. The fact that people do something doesn't prove anything.

↑ Atali

Tue, Jun 26 2007, 6:33 am

Quote:

The only thing that makes sense here is baking challas lichvod Shabbos instead of buying them is the 'extra', nothing to do with taking challa.

The segula, as I understand it, is to davka bake challah in order to have the opportunity to fulfill an extra mitzvah (taking challah) which they otherwise would not have fulfilled (by instead buying from a bakery).

Quote:

Do people make a bris for their son as a segula for something else? Do people make kiddush with someone's name in mind? I certainly hope not.

These are very different scenarios. No one decides to have a son in order to be able to fulfill the mitzvah of bris mila, but people do bake challah in order to fulfill the mitzvah of hafrashas challah. I have heard that some couples with fertility problems davka go out of their way to fulfill the mitzvah of shiluach haken, which seems to be a similar idea.

Marion

Tue, Jun 26 2007, 7:37 am

Not to mention (someone already has), that it is possible to bake challah (or any other dough that would be mechayev hafrashat challah) in a quantity that wouldn't be mechayev. So the extra is to do it in a way that you WOULD be obligated. For example, I have several recipes. Many of them call for 5-6 cups (American cups) of flour, which by some opinions is definitely enough to take challah. But the one I like the best only calls for 2.5-3.5 cups, which is not enough. So my extra effort is to make a double batch (which is enough for 3 weeks!) so I can take challah. Never mind the machloket over how much you need in order to take with a bracha!

Lechatchila Ariber ↓

Tue, Jun 26 2007, 7:59 am

shalhevet as mentioned before, doing mitzvos in itself is a segula.

Certainly we aren't mean to do mitzvos as segulos but we do them because that's why we are here, however sometimes when people are going through something in life, they take upon themselves to do something extra in the hope that the zchus from that mitzva will help them get through that difficulty.
and when doing a mitzva and making a brocho, surely it must be the ideal time to daven for oneself or others, don't you think?

I was wondering why it should bother you that people believe in this as there is nothing wrong occurring, only more people doing mitzvos Smile

.
Then it occurred to me that perhaps your concern is that people may naively take on this "segula" and if it doesn't work soon enough, will become disheartened.
would I be right in assuming that is the issue?
If so, my answer would be as I mentioned earlier that zchusim are accumulative. We never know when they will come to stand us in good stead.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Tue, Jun 26 2007, 8:21 am

EstiS wrote:

shalhevet as mentioned before, doing mitzvos in itself is a segula.

But we're not supposed to do a mitzva we're chayav in as a segula.

Quote:

Certainly we aren't mean to do mitzvos as segulos but we do them because that's why we are here, however sometimes when people are going through something in life, they take upon themselves to do something extra in the hope that the zchus from that mitzva will help them get through that difficulty.

100%, but the zechus in doing a mitzva is not the same as doing a mitzva you have to do because you want 'something out of it'.

Quote:

and when doing a mitzva and making a brocho, surely it must be the ideal time to daven for oneself or others, don't you think?

For sure, but it's not the same thing.

Quote:

I was wondering why it should bother you that people believe in this as there is nothing wrong occurring, only more people doing mitzvos Smile

No, it bothers me that people are not doing mitzvos 'lesheim shamayim' and maybe (I say this very hesitatingly b/c as I said at the beginning quite possibly I have this all wrong and Gedolim say to do it) shouldn't be doing this. I really don't know and I'm interestd to find out.

↑ Seraph

Tue, Jun 26 2007, 9:02 am

Shalhevet, is R Chaim Kanievsky a gadol?
Yes, he didnt say the source, but he definitely didnt say its bad to do, but rather a big zechus...

suomynona wrote:

someone asked R' Chaim Kanievsky about it. He said he doesn't know of any source, but that since taking challah is a mitzvah, and 40 is a powerful number, if you are doing that in someone's zchus, it's bound to be a big zchus.

↑ shalhevet

Tue, Jun 26 2007, 5:39 pm

breslov wrote:

Shalhevet, is R Chaim Kanievsky a gadol?

For sure. Katonti...

Quote:

Yes, he didnt say the source, but he definitely didnt say its bad to do, but rather a big zechus...

suomynona wrote:

It's very hard to know from this quote what he meant. Did someone say they'd done it and asked if it was good? Did someone say they want to do it? Did someone come and ask for the best zchus for some problem? Did he recommend it or he just said it was okay to do? And who asked? And did su hear from that person or after it had gone through 15 people?

↑ Lechatchila Ariber

Tue, Jun 26 2007, 7:52 pm

shalhevet wrote:

100%, but the zechus in doing a mitzva is not the same as doing a mitzva you have to do because you want 'something out of it'.

Quote:

You are a 100% right that we should be doing mitzvos because that is what hashem wants...
but...I don't think there is anything wrong with a person taking on extra mitzvos also for the sake of helping them in something in their lives.

There is this concept of making a keli physically and spiritually, whether by giving more tzedoka, taking on extra shiurim or even a baking challah in order to do hafroshos challah, in addition to what ever it is they are doing physically to improve their matzov.
And that's what I think this is about.

A person thinks, things aren't going so right for them so they decide to make changes in their life and sometimes fortunately those changes are spiritual as well.

I think as well that even when we do these things for an ulterior motive we feel the spiritual effects of it and feel we are doing something "right" regardless of what our real motives are.

Fact is we know we are doing a mitzva.
this thread is kind of in line with my thread "why do you do mitzvos?" Wink

http://www.imamother.com/forum.....tzvos