 |
|
 |
 |
|
|
Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
amother
|
 Mon, Sep 05 2016, 6:53 pm
| amother wrote: | What if you just paid cash for them?
That just doesn't seem fair. |
All the vaccines given are recorded in a database. There is no way to legally give only some vaccines in the US and go to school. Once you give one vaccine, you have to give them all. It doesn't make a difference how you pay.
| |
|
| Back to top |
 2
|
amother
|
Mon, Sep 05 2016, 7:17 pm
| amother wrote: | | I'll probably look into that at some point. I'm not ready to give anything yet so it's less pressing but in theory I'm ok giving MMR and polio. I definitely don't want to give Hep A or B, rotavirus, flu or chickenpox. Right now flu and rotavirus are not mandated where I live but Hep A and B are. So is DTP and chickenpox. There are a total of 20 vaccine mandated for a two year old starting school right now. I'm not ready to do that so...back to my religious exemption. |
Rotavirus is an infant disease and not required at all anywhere once your child reaches a certain age. I may be wrong, but I think flu shot is optional everywhere for now. They were requiring it in NYC for some time. A group of parents from Manhattan and Brooklyn hired a lawyer and fought it. They won because it turned out that the way it was being mandated was illegal. The yearly flu shot is no longer required in NYC to attend school.
| |
|
| Back to top |
2
|
↑
cnc
↓
|
Mon, Sep 05 2016, 8:12 pm
| amother wrote: | | That doesn't make any sense. I believe that you should give all vaccines, but how would you doctor even know about your exemption? That's for the school and the school board. I HIGHLY DOUBT that if you walked into your doctors office and requested some vaccines that you would be told no, and if so, find another doctor or a vaccination clinic. |
Once you give some vaccines, the exemption is no longer valid.
I'm pro vaccine, but I agree that this is silly.
| |
|
| Back to top |
2
|
↑
cnc
|
Mon, Sep 05 2016, 8:15 pm
| amother wrote: | | All the vaccines given are recorded in a database. There is no way to legally give only some vaccines in the US and go to school. Once you give one vaccine, you have to give them all. It doesn't make a difference how you pay. |
I think that some states still do allow partial vaccination, I may be wrong though.
I personally prefer not to give the flu shot-but I didn't have a choice for my child that was under five. My luck-they ruled that it doesn't have to be given the day after I gave it.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
amother
|
Mon, Sep 05 2016, 8:38 pm
| amother wrote: | | Who said that they don't have parents who take care of them. Clean water is indeed one of the biggest issues you are correct and there are many attempts to help with this going on now. Trust me they would love vaccines and medicine to protect against the horrible infant and child mortality they have. Id be willing to bet I know more about third world medical needs than you but thanks. |
You cannot prove that the deaths and illnesses that are rampant there are directly caused by their lack of vaccines. There are many other differences between the US and third world countries at play here (lack of clean water, lack of food, lack of shelter, poverty etc.) When everything there is the same as in the US, except for the fact that they don't have vaccines, and they are still dying, then you can say it's because they don't have vaccines.
(Remember, correlation does not equal causation)
However, I'm sure they would accept and love to have anything from the US including vaccines. They would also love to have American food and clothing.
| |
|
| Back to top |
3
|
amother
|
Mon, Sep 05 2016, 9:10 pm
| amother wrote: | You cannot prove that the deaths and illnesses that are rampant there are directly caused by their lack of vaccines. There are many other differences between the US and third world countries at play here (lack of clean water, lack of food, lack of shelter, poverty etc.) When everything there is the same as in the US, except for the fact that they don't have vaccines, and they are still dying, then you can say it's because they don't have vaccines.
(Remember, correlation does not equal causation)
However, I'm sure they would accept and love to have anything from the US including vaccines. They would also love to have American food and clothing. |
This is not about correlation.
Vaccinations against specific diseases in third world countries have been slowing the tide of deaths of those specific diseases in those countries. In proportion to the rates at which the vaccines are given.
Thanks to aggressive efforts to give all North African children the polio vaccine, for example, polio was nearly eradicated from North Africa in 2015.
https://www.theguardian.com/gl.....ation
Unfortunately, 2 children in Nigeria became infected with polio in the last few months, and sadly, they are now paralyzed.
Those 2 children lived in a volatile region ruled by Boko Haram (affiliated with ISIS). Boko Haram claimed that vaccinations are a Western plot to kill Muslims, and they prevented many children from receiving vaccinations in the past year. In order to prevent these 2 new cases from turning into an outbreak, Nigerian health officials are stepping up their efforts to make sure everyone receives a vaccination.
http://www.npr.org/sections/go.....frica
| |
|
| Back to top |
6
|
amother
|
Mon, Sep 05 2016, 9:12 pm
| amother wrote: | You cannot prove that the deaths and illnesses that are rampant there are directly caused by their lack of vaccines. There are many other differences between the US and third world countries at play here (lack of clean water, lack of food, lack of shelter, poverty etc.) When everything there is the same as in the US, except for the fact that they don't have vaccines, and they are still dying, then you can say it's because they don't have vaccines.
(Remember, correlation does not equal causation)
However, I'm sure they would accept and love to have anything from the US including vaccines. They would also love to have American food and clothing. |
In fact, it is precisely because they have poor sanitation leading to poor hygiene, unclean drinking water, etc., that they are *especially* prone to devastation from vaccine preventable illnesses, and are therefore the most helped by vaccines.
| |
|
| Back to top |
3
|
amother
|
Mon, Sep 05 2016, 9:27 pm
| amother wrote: | | In fact, it is precisely because they have poor sanitation leading to poor hygiene, unclean drinking water, etc., that they are *especially* prone to devastation from vaccine preventable illnesses, and are therefore the most helped by vaccines. |
I agree with that, but you can't say to go look at countries without vaccines and see what kinds of problems they have. Even with all vaccines, there would very likely be more death and illness there due to other factors.
| |
|
| Back to top |
3
|
marina
↓
|
Mon, Sep 05 2016, 10:52 pm
I just want to remind everyone to be as skeptical about legal pronouncements on this thread as about medical ones. I read quite a few pronouncements here on what the supreme court said about vaccines being unavoidably unsafe and what ALL the laws say, and about how federal funding can get pulled if a school requires vaccines- none of these appear to be accurate.
Here's a link about a NY federal court specifically ruling that schools do not violate the 1st Amendment when barring unvaccinated kids. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06......html
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
|
amother
|
Mon, Sep 05 2016, 11:45 pm
| marina wrote: | I just want to remind everyone to be as skeptical about legal pronouncements on this thread as about medical ones. I read quite a few pronouncements here on what the supreme court said about vaccines being unavoidably unsafe and what ALL the laws say, and about how federal funding can get pulled if a school requires vaccines- none of these appear to be accurate.
Here's a link about a NY federal court specifically ruling that schools do not violate the 1st Amendment when barring unvaccinated kids. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06......html |
The law discussed in your article that they are saying doesn't violate the First Amendment refers to barring unvaccinated kids from attending school *during an outbreak.* That is very different than barring them from attending school altogether. The mom, Dina made a few mistakes when going about her religious exemption. One is that she submitted a medical exemption which is used by the school as proof that her religious beliefs are not genuine. This complicates things a lot and is why she needed to seek out Finn's assistance.
The article is correct in saying the school can reject a religious exemption after reviewing it. They have that right. However, the school cannot do it without reason. Once it's rejected, the parent has the right to fight it and it has been done.
Which legal pronouncements on this thread specifically are inaccurate?
| |
|
| Back to top |
4
|
↑
marina
↓
|
Tue, Sep 06 2016, 1:19 am
|
What federal or state law or regulation, in NYC or elsewhere, bars private schools from accepting only vaccinated students, regardless of exemption type? I haven't seen anything like that.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
amother
|
Tue, Sep 06 2016, 1:26 am
| tymama wrote: | | My dd was just diagnosed with JRA and she can't be around anyone who's not up to date on their vaccines because of the medications she's on. I would be extremely p.o.ed if I found out that the school said all kids were vaccinated and then some idiot mom sent her kid to school saying she was vaccinated but really not. |
What if there are another few kids in same situation as yours? So maybe in a large school there could be a handful of these kids. Do they not pose a threat to each other?
| |
|
| Back to top |
2
|
amother
|
Tue, Sep 06 2016, 1:55 am
| marina wrote: | | What federal or state law or regulation, in NYC or elsewhere, bars private schools from accepting only vaccinated students, regardless of exemption type? I haven't seen anything like that. |
Most Jewish schools accept government funding and are not completely privately funded. For instance, UPK (which all the Jewish private schools that I know of participate in) is considered publicly funded childcare.
| |
|
| Back to top |
5
|
amother
|
Tue, Sep 06 2016, 10:18 am
Neither your first nor third link has anything at all to do with the topic of infant mortality. The cdc link just lists a chart of what ages which vaccines are recommended.
Your middle link quotes a "study" performed by 2 people, Neil Z. Miller and Gary S. Goldman in a non-mainstream journal article from 2011, (the journal is ranked number 58 out of 77 in the area of toxicology) claiming that, in developed countries, higher vaccine rates are correlated with higher infant mortality rates.
These 2 authors are rabid anti-vaxx activists but, more to the point, do not appear to have any formal science or medical training. And pretty much ALL claims trying to correlate infant mortality with vaccines come from one or two "studies" by these same individuals, this being one of them.
So quoting 3 links to make it seem like there are sooooo many studies out there all saying the same thing, is a bit disingenuous.
But let's put that all aside for a minute and look at the claims.
These say that the US gives the most number of vaccines, and also has the highest infant mortality rates, based on a CIA chart (of all things) listing infant mortality by country from 2009.
The first problem is how they count vaccines. When looking at the US, they count it by number of injections, rather than by antigen. So DTaP they count as one, instead of 3. If they were counting by number of antigens rather than shots, Japan would be at the top of the list for giving the "most" vaccines, not the US.
But that wouldn't support the conclusion they're trying to find.
Also, in their study, they don't even go by "shot"--only when it suits them. For instance, in Austria, DTaP, Hib, HepB, and IPV are all given in one shot, yet the "study" still counts this as 4 vaccines.
The study also has flat out mistakes, such as incorrectly listing the German vaccination schedule.
They also fail to look at historical trends. For instance in the 1980s, Germany's infant mortality rate was 5x what it is today, yet they gave far fewer vaccines back then.
If there was a TRUE correlation between infant mortality and vaccines, that would be seen in various situations: When looking at historical trends over different time periods in different countries; when comparing countries whose infant mortality rates are WORSE than the US's, with their own vaccine schedules, and using other source listings for rankings of infant mortality rates, such as UN rankings.
If anything, meta-analysis of studies has shown that vaccines are correlated with reduced risk of SIDS, yet the authors ignored mention of this in their study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17400342
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16945457
http://justthevax.blogspot.com......html
http://scienceblogs.com/insole.....#more
| |
|
| Back to top |
6
|
amother
|
Tue, Sep 06 2016, 11:14 am
I didn't gloss over. You posted links, then wrote,
| Maybe wrote: | | FYI Developed countries with the least vaccines have lowest infant mortality, these with the most vaccines have the highest |
It seemed like you were saying that those links supported the claim you made below them.
What was the relevance in posting the cdc's vaccine recommendations for ADULTS??
Anyway, you did post one study, which I then explained the flaws of. I'm interested in hearing responses to those specific points.
To simplify:
1. Why did the study count vaccines by number of shots--only in the US--instead of the number of antigens (diseases the shot is vaccinating against)? What was the reason for this?
2. Why did the study NOT count the number of vaccines by the number of shots when reviewing other countries? How can you possibly make a comparison this way???
3. What happens when you compare a country's infant mortality rate and vaccine rate to its OWN history? If there is causation, you will see a correlation.
4. What happens when you compare, specifically, the infant mortality rates of countries WORSE than the US, with its own vaccine history?
Yet no other way of looking at the numbers show any type of association.
| |
|
| Back to top |
4
|
↑
marina
↓
|
Tue, Sep 06 2016, 11:16 am
| amother wrote: | | Most Jewish schools accept government funding and are not completely privately funded. For instance, UPK (which all the Jewish private schools that I know of participate in) is considered publicly funded childcare. |
Of course. Still, please cite the law or regulation barring these private schools from accepting only vaxxed students.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
|
Imamother may earn commission when you use our links to make a purchase.
© 2025 Imamother.com - All rights reserved
|  |
 |
|
 |
|
|
