People are Individuals - recent shootings

↑ ora_43

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 11:32 pm

Just FTR, slavery ended 150 years ago in the United States only according to a very limited definition of "slavery."

By today's definition, a lot of what happened with sharecropping - which continued into the mid-20th century - would also be considered a form of slavery. As would some of the forced labor done by mostly black prisoners, in the American south especially.

That's all aside from the blatant racism that continued after slavery officially ended.

↑ petiteruchy

Mon, Jul 11 2016, 4:12 am

ora_43 wrote:

Right?!

And oh, 150 years should be plenty of time to recover from being kidnapped, sold, raped, beaten, uneducated, sold again, over and over until children and grandchildren have been separated from family, unable to read, no family wealth, no homes. And then, what, you think they were freed with a nice pay cheque and a clap on the shoulder?

I am seriously shocked and appalled that Jews who know so much about their own history could be so blind to the effects of generational and institutional racism and segregation.

The state of the inner cities in the US is just another shameful chapter in the history of slavery. When all those slaves were freed, many of them headed north, where black people had been free for longer and there were manufacturing jobs available. Well, turns out that white people in the north aren't so much greater than the south because there was what amounted to a panic, and blatant housing, banking and educational policies meant that those communities were trapped in cycles of poverty, under education and over incarceration. The plight of South Chicago or Detroit, for example, are a direct result of white flight and discriminatory housing policies.

↑ BasMelech120 ↓

Mon, Jul 11 2016, 5:20 am

petiteruchy wrote:

I'm sorry, but the inner cities in the US right now is actually just another shameful chapter of the democrats efforts to keep this group dependent on them, in order to garner more votes and to widen the scopes of government responsibility.

↑ BasMelech120 ↓

Mon, Jul 11 2016, 5:24 am

Maya wrote:

And now the classic eye-roll. Next, I assume, is an angry 'ARE YOU KIIDDDDING ME???? You are a white, privileged, cisgendered female, how dare you even speak for black/brown people????'

I hope you do understand that I have a lot of experience conversing with people in your mindset; I completed most of my schooling in very liberal schools and had to put up with this garbage almost daily. In fact, many of the people there had 'better' and 'stronger' arguments than you, so this conversation is not that tough for me.

After all, 'if you want to anger a conservative, tell him a lie. If you want to anger a liberal, just tell him the truth'.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Mon, Jul 11 2016, 5:29 am

fmt4 wrote:

ya, we're totally over that whole Egyptian slavery thing. We only have a whole holiday where all we do is talk about it.

It really rubs me the wrong way when Jews make negative analogies between the Jewish people and people of color and smugly point out just how much better we've done for ourselves than they have. It's just so arrogant and self- aggrandizing. The Jews have survived and prospered because G-d helped us. We are his chosen people. No other reason. Without that who knows where we would be. So tone down the smugness and superior attitude. Who are we to judge and put down another group for not getting over and past their injustices as well as we did? Seriously nauseating.

Thank you. I'm catching up and on was going to reply to a post on p. 9. I tried a few times and couldn't get it right. This is close to what I wanted to say, minus the - forgive me, I understand your frustration - ad hominem. We have tools to get us through tough times. And even then, it's not easy. I cannot fathom how anyone got through the Holocaust with faith and sanity intact though I would like to think I would have myself.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Mon, Jul 11 2016, 5:31 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ shoshanim999 ↓

Mon, Jul 11 2016, 5:31 am

fmt4 wrote:

Is it possible that jews have survived and prospered because as a whole we've made good choices? To suggest that jews are thriving only because g-d is pushing us no matter how irresponsible we are is a silly argument. When your child wants to drop out of high school and you'll ask him what his plans are for the future and he responds, don't worry mom, I'm one of g-ds chosen people. It'll all work out in the end, you'll see. I'm sure you'll accept that logic since that's what you're saying here.

↑ BasMelech120 ↓

Mon, Jul 11 2016, 5:31 am

marina wrote:

Let's try again.

I am not asking whether many of the black people you worked with understand the problems in their own community, etc. I know the answer to that. I am asking if most of the black people you worked with told you there was no such thing as institutional or systemic racism, if they thought that racism had all disappeared and they were treated equally. Don't blend the questions, just answer that one.

Yes. I can say that over 75% of the black population that I've worked with were unable to point to institutional racism or systemic racism. This was not in a fiery argument, just in conversations about this topic and its effect on black youth(especially over the last few years with the rise of BLM). In fact, many were embarrassed by the frequent headlines of BLM and what it was portraying about them.

Let's put it this way. If a group of men and women came out and declared themselves 'Jewish Lives Matter' - or even just 'White Lives Matter' and was in the news every couple of days for another violent protest or called for the killing of police officers, would you be proud to call yourself part of or affiliated with that group? If you are a respectable person, I think not. Just the same, in this case, there are thousands and thousands of black people speaking out against BLM and what it represents. Like I said before, they are not all just robots thinking and acting like you would want them to act (victims, dependent on the govt., dependent on 'white people' to make things right). But as I've mentioned before, this reality may be too hard for you to accept.
*Once again, I'd love to hear about your personal experience working with this population.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Mon, Jul 11 2016, 5:35 am

shoshanim999 wrote:

Is it possible you're both right? What fmt4 wrote AND good choices? fmt4 explains where the wherewithal to make good choices comes from.

↑ BasMelech120 ↓

Mon, Jul 11 2016, 5:37 am

youngishbear wrote:

BasMelech, do you feel the same way towards individuals who faced the same life-challenges as you personally, and they did not emerge from them as strong as you did?

By saying African-Americans should have gotten over it by now - without acknowledging what 'it' actually encompasses - you are doing on a huge scale what no person should ever be arrogant enough to do to an individual. Correct me if I'm remembering wrong, but I recall you are in a helping profession. Please drop the judgement because it is toxic when dealing with people.

Good memory about my line of work.

And somehow, I've managed to rise to the top of the ranks within my profession, largely within predominantly black communities. If I truly had a 'toxic judgement problem', that wouldn't be the case. In fact, my belief in this population and my encouragement of their strong personal characters and ability to take responsibility (especially teaching this to youngsters) has given me acclaim that others have called 'refreshing'. Facts are facts - you do something, there's an outcome. That is a fact no matter what the color of your skin is. Teaching this to black people poses only a single problem - a problem to the government who wants to keep them on its leash.

I urge you to change your opinion of black people as 'dependent', 'ruined', 'different', or any other pitiful adjective you have created for them. I don't know if you've every heard of the 'self-fulfilling prophecy', but if you expect very little from a person, that is what you will get. But if you expect more from them, and let them know that you believe they can do it - no matter what color their skin is - they will prove to themselves and to the world that they are more than the victims the democrats wants them to be.

I've been there, done that. My case notes speak for themselves.
(If you have personal experience with this population that contradicts my findings, I'd love to talk more about them. Again, personal experience.)

PAMOM ↓

Mon, Jul 11 2016, 5:55 am

BasMelech-- what violent protests are you speaking of? The BLM leader just arrested in Louisiana was arrested for NON-violent protest, exactly the sort of protest Dr. King advocated (I.e. , peacefully impeding traffic on a bridge or highway with full knowledge that arrest would follow). The murders in Dallas have been confirmed by every representative of BLM. There are extremists in every group--do you want me to point out Israeli equivalents of this murderer? And BLM IS about Afucan-Americans taking responsibility for themselves as a group.
Can you tell me where I might find proof of thousands from the Black community disagreeing with BLM? It would be very illuminating.
I'm curious given my own experience working in a largely African-Anerican population: who was in charge of your promotions? Your clients or the organization you work for? I'm sure you do good work or you would not have been promoted but I'm curious as to who you are answerable to. That is NOT to minimize the work you do, whatever it is. You just may not be the figure your clients are most likely to show their true feelings to.

↑ fmt4 ↓

Mon, Jul 11 2016, 5:57 am

shoshanim999 wrote:

Of course on an individual basis we must do our hishtadlus. But in terms of our continued existence and success as a nation, we are always taught that it is basically miraculous- that's what every holiday is celebrating. We're not celebrating our own greatness and patting ourselves on the back - we know the dangers of believing in kochi v'otzem yadi. We are thanking G-d for his love and kindness in saving us once again.
Basic yiddishkeit, not sure what's new here. Scratching Head

↑ fmt4 ↓

Mon, Jul 11 2016, 6:02 am

This is a quote from the other thread, the amother didn't wish to subject herself to the vile racism on this thread, which I quite understand. Obviously I can't verify it, but it's interesting to see the perspective of someone who claims to actually work with the BLM movement. Sounds like they are doing a lot of good things, but it's the bad stuff that grabs the headlines as always. I'm sure that Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King got some bad press in their day as well.

amother wrote:

I'm a caucasian and I've been involved in my communities BLM since it's inception. I feel that within the frum community and America at large the only recognition given to the BLM movement is when demonstrations hit the headlines. Factually each community BLM is involved on many different levels. Some people are working for police reforms, others are involved in the public school systems engaging students and community on a much larger discussion of racism. Others engage institutions, such as employers and businesses to work together to find a means to ending institutional racism.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Mon, Jul 11 2016, 6:06 am

fmt4 wrote:

But it's this knowledge of our history, and knowing that sheb'chol dor v'dor we have been under attack yet managed to endure, to build and rebuild a society based on love of G-d and His creations that's helped us.

I heard a great line from a R' Dovid Olesker who does hasbara: look at different national anthems, Germany's, France's, others, about victory and bloodshed and all sorts of things. And look at ours. Hatikva. To be a free people in our land.
We have the nebbiest anthem. It boils down to: Please leave us alone and let us live in peace.

That's all we've asked for in history.

No, we shouldn't pat ourselves on the back and fall into the kochi v'otzem yadi trap. If you've had the zechus and pleasure to hear Tammy Karmel you'll hear her message is to work on getting the ego out of the way and recognizing that everything is from Hashem. If we accomplish something, it's because He gave us the tools. But there is room for the self-endorsement, so that we know that we have the kochos to do it and do it again, and to be grateful for the toolkit. Because we have no control over the results but the process is our responsibility.

↑ youngishbear ↓

Mon, Jul 11 2016, 6:07 am

Basmelech, I am going to have to assume that IRL your approach is motivational and less condescending than it comes across here. I believe it is possible to motivate people to stop blaming circumstances and take control over whatever part of their own lives they can. That is a huge part of any therapist's job.

But that is still not the same as denying the validity of someone's experience. I really hope you don't do that. If you do, and your clients are shamed into making changes, that is a lot of internal damage right there even if they achieve external success.

↑ mille ↓

Mon, Jul 11 2016, 6:16 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

6. With all our back and forth, I cannot point to you outright expressing your views on the representation of racist cops by the two police officers in the news last week. However, that statement was also meant for others reading this thread - some of whom did take that stance. And no, you can't point to a respectable black Sheriff and say he 'doesn't represent all blacks' and then point to a police officer who shot a man out of self defense and then say, 'all cops are racist'. (Again, this is for others following this conversation, since you have not directly typed out that theory.)

Is there anyone on this thread who thinks all cops are racist? Who? Where did you get this from? All cops are racist? What?

The irony of this assertion is that this topic is literally about how people are individuals (see the title of the thread!), and how NOT all black people are xyz, NOT all cops are racist or anything else... How the loss of human life is ALWAYS a tragedy and how senseless death is NEVER acceptable, no matter what side they are on.

↑ PAMOM ↓

Mon, Jul 11 2016, 6:20 am

Fmt4-- I'm old enough to have lived through the Civil Rights movement. (Although I was in elementary school , my parents were very involved in politics). MLK was vilified as being a Communist, an outside agitator, a proponent of violent revolution (despite his words to the contrary), and more. If you read his work, you can see what claims he's responding to. Now look at how we see him--he's appropriately recognized as a major force for American democracy.

In short: you're right.

He saw a need for change and mobilized the community (communities) to take matters into their hands. The white community (with obvious exceptions of people like Rabbi Heschel, freedom riders, etc.) largely got involved only after the black community took matters into their own hands. That's what's happening now and I don't see how some posters don't realize that what they're asking for (the black community taking responsibility for change/improvement/self-determination) is exactly what BLM is about. The movement isn't just about police, as the anonymous poster from the other thread notes. It's about education, health, and more.

Last edited by PAMOM on Mon, Jul 11 2016, 6:32 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ Maya

Mon, Jul 11 2016, 6:21 am

youngishbear wrote:

Well said.

↑ fmt4 ↓

Mon, Jul 11 2016, 6:53 am

mille wrote:

I also think it's quite telling that BasMelech has turned this into a liberal vs conservative debate... When did overall political leanings become part of this? Oh, only when you brought it up.

I was about to say the same thing! Literally no one mentioned a word about their political leanings. She just decided to start slinging immature and silly liberal vs conservative insults ( liberals hate the truth hahahaha so clever Rolling Eyes

) Talk about generalizations. I guess when you generalize about one group you generalize about them all. Wait is that a generalization? LOL