People are Individuals - recent shootings

↑ WhatFor ↓

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 7:45 pm

BasMelech120 wrote:

Blacks were used as slaves. That was an example of racism - they were not considered humans but were counted as property. In 1863, slavery was abolished. However now, over 150 years later, many in the black community (BLM as the forefront) are still going on about how this has affected every particle of their being today, including something like getting pregnant at a young age and raising the child without a father. Instead of taking responsibility for their actions, many in this community would rather blame it on white people, 'white privilege', and everything with less melanin in their skin - but not on their own choices.

Let's compare a different situation: During (and before) WWII, Jews were marginalized because of who they are. They were forced to wear a yellow star, were considered as less than others, and had to abide by the Nuremburg laws, which also degraded them in many ways. During the war, over 6 million Jewish people were killed - just because of who they were. Now, less than 75 years later, Jewish communities around the world have flourished socially, economically, academically, vocationally, and more. Do Jewish communities around the world have problems? Absolutely. Many problems. But we don't blame them on anyone else. Let's take s-xual abuse - we might try to push the blame from the parents to the teachers to the schools, but no one has ever blamed Antisemitism for this problem! No one has ever blamed the Germans! No one is blaming 'Arian privilege' because they oppressed us almost 100 years ago!

That's the difference. I agree that there was a time in history where black people were truly oppressed, really marginalized, and not even considered 'human'. But that is not the case today. Black people have every single right that white people have. The victimizing of this population is a tactic that the government has coined in order to keep communities dependent on them, and the people perpetuating this ideology are all part of the problem.
If you can't expect more from a person because of the color of their skin, the problem is with you.

This is a false analogy. German Jews were not oppressed for hundreds of years in a row to the point that their families systemically torn apart for hundreds of years and they were denied education for hundreds of years. My own ancestors who escaped the war were educated and from educated families. They had memories of their education, learned skills, and memories of what a normal family structure should look like.
Moreover, most Jews fleeing the holocaust had white skin, and while there certainly was racism against Jews in America it was easier to hide Jewishness than blackness. Bill Maher spoke about this once when someone brought up the same argument- how when he was a child, he moved into a neighborhood and a friendly neighbor came up to them and said, "Thank God you moved in. The last people here were Jewish!" It was obviously easier to hide and not as in-your-face, especially as Jews changed their last names.
For multiple reasons, their situation is not analogous to ours.

↑ BasMelech120 ↓

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 7:51 pm

marina wrote:

1. The First Amendment bars (sometimes) the government from restricting your speech (some of it). Nothing else. No one's constitutional rights are oppressed if their fellow citizen (non-government agent) tells them to shut the hell up.

Since you seem to be a fan of the Constitution, perhaps it might interest you that police brutality violates at the very least the 4th and 14th Amendments. Because police are government agents.

2. Yes, you restated it, but I still don't understand. You think nonJews hate Jews, so how is this relevant to the conversation?

3. Bigotry is not about refusing to conform to ideas or not being able to hear about another view point. It's about unfairly disliking whole races or religions. Like in the definition.

4. I'm not sure what your thought process is here. You think that black people don't experience the types of prejudice I described? Or that all of those aren't systemic? Or that they're not significant enough? And also- how do you get to decide?

It's like some midwestern farmer Charlie Bob announces THERE IS NO ANTI SEMITISM! And when people point out, hey, Charlie Bob, did you know that in some places X and Y and Z, and Charlie Bob still insists THAT DOESN'T ADD UP TO ANTI SEMITISM SORRY TRY AGAIN. Lol who are you to decide whether anti semitism exists?

5. I just want to clarify what you're saying now. You've worked with many black people, most of whom think there's no institutional / systemic racism?

6. I don't know that I ever said anything about the two guys representing or not representing racist cops. Have I? What can't I have both ways?

1. People in colleges blocking certain speakers from coming to events are blocking free speech. With that as an example, telling a person to 'shut the h*** up' because you dislike what they are saying is a small fraction of that same action.

- Police brutality violates those amendments, but police doing their jobs does not fall under that.

2. Once again, this is relevant to the conversation because you brought this topic up in a previous page.

3. We can all take out whichever part of the definition that fits our argument. Your picking that part does make a great case for your argument. Good point.

4. My thought process is as follows: I hate racism just as much as you do. But you cannot point to 'disparities' brought onto people largely by their own choices and yell 'racism' or 'bigot'. For any of those examples, bring me a clear example of actual RACISM! (For example, in the case of Latoya vs. Jane, bring me facts, bring me a case, bring me the company who is systematically doing this today - and we will fight them together. You have my word.)

- Charlie Bob doesn't have to agree that Antisemitism exists. For me, the Torah is true enough that when I read the pasuk of Eisav Soneh Es Yakov, I believe that this phenomenon is out there, and that it is my responsibility not to instigate anyone in that direction.

5. Yes, the many black people with whom I've worked were open to hearing different point of views about oppression, the newly constructed definition of 'racism', and about the responsibility of many of the social problems within this group. The fact that you find it so hard to believe saddens me, for it shows what a low opinion you have of your fellow black citizens. Shame on you. They DO have brains, you know.

6. With all our back and forth, I cannot point to you outright expressing your views on the representation of racist cops by the two police officers in the news last week. However, that statement was also meant for others reading this thread - some of whom did take that stance. And no, you can't point to a respectable black Sheriff and say he 'doesn't represent all blacks' and then point to a police officer who shot a man out of self defense and then say, 'all cops are racist'. (Again, this is for others following this conversation, since you have not directly typed out that theory.)

↑ BasMelech120 ↓

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 7:53 pm

WhatFor wrote:

You found good differences. Thank you for pointing them out.

But are you forgetting, we were slaves too! Should we start blaming the Egyptians? Do they now have 'Egyptian privilege'???

↑ BasMelech120 ↓

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 8:00 pm

youngishbear wrote:

Basmelech, what was Rosa Parks doing on that bus?

After all, slavery had long ended.

Rosa Parks was actually fighting off racism. She wasn't blocking highways, she wasn't shooting police officers, she wasn't blaming others for her personal issues on a soapbox. She noticed an actual act of systemic racism - even after the abolishment of slavery - and used her strong character to make a statement and instill change within her community and beyond.

Martin Luther King did the same thing.

Brown vs. Board of Education did the same thing.

These people were strong black men and women who chose to take action against racism, and didn't choose to blame others for their personal problems. And they got really, really far. That is something I respect and look up to! There was systemic racism in place, these people realized it, and they DID something to fix it for themselves and for others to come after them! Can you show me an instance - ONE INSTANCE - in which BLM has done the same????

↑ fmt4 ↓

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 8:17 pm

BasMelech120 wrote:

Huh???

Just as Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King worked peacefully toward desegregation and civil rights, so too the majority of black lives matter activists are working toward an end to police brutality and discrimination. They are doing that by protesting, by spreading awareness, by working to change laws and change the way police officers operate.
I don't know why you are so intent on separating them from the tradition of the fight against racism that they believe they are a part of.
Just because bas melech doesn't think that their cause is a righteous and important one doesn't make it so.

↑ WhatFor ↓

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 8:22 pm

BasMelech120 wrote:

Rosa Parks violated the law and was arrested for refusing to give up her seat to a white man. In her act of protest, she broke the law. Within days, black people were picketing, protesting, and boycotting a bus company. Through her protest, she ultimately brought about change. She did blame white supremacy for segregation- this was implicit and explicit throughout her protests.
BLM is all about protest. They hope it will bring about change.

For your own edification, here is this link: http://www.history.com/topics/.....ycott

That said, your point is truly unclear. Maybe some logical connectors would help the reader understand.

↑ fmt4 ↓

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 8:22 pm

BasMelech120 wrote:

You found good differences. Thank you for pointing them out.

But are you forgetting, we were slaves too! Should we start blaming the Egyptians? Do they now have 'Egyptian privilege'???

ya, we're totally over that whole Egyptian slavery thing. We only have a whole holiday where all we do is talk about it.

It really rubs me the wrong way when Jews make negative analogies between the Jewish people and people of color and smugly point out just how much better we've done for ourselves than they have. It's just so arrogant and self- aggrandizing. The Jews have survived and prospered because G-d helped us. We are his chosen people. No other reason. Without that who knows where we would be. So tone down the smugness and superior attitude. Who are we to judge and put down another group for not getting over and past their injustices as well as we did? Seriously nauseating.

↑ youngishbear ↓

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 8:30 pm

BasMelech120 wrote:

My post was a response to you saying slavery ended 150 years ago. You insinuated that all problems ended for them with the sigining of the Emancipation Proclomation. My point is that it did not.

Unfortunately I don't know enough about the BLM movement. I happened to have been turned off at one point when they rejected the rejoinder by someone or other in the news who said "all lives matter." Well, they do.

However, if you ask what they are protesting, they have moved to the next level. Sure, busdrivers today can no longer single out a woman just because she is black and make her sit at the back of the bus, but police do routinely single out specific people for stop-and-frisk or traffic stops or whatever it is based on skin color.

And that may be harder to prove because it is not written in an official handbook of police procedure. Therefore it will probably be harder to change. We are talking about changing prejudice and bias, not actual laws.

To be clear, I think the violent reaction will accomplish the opposite. Simple-minded people will read these news stories and "prove" how violent African Americans are (right, because all the recent mass shooters of civilians like in Sandy Hook have all been black Rolling Eyes

, but whatever.) Such violence makes police more jittery and therefore more afraid for their lives and more easily triggered into shooting. But again, the vast majority of protestors don't want retaliation. They want change.

BTW, I passed a patrol car today. My heart skipped a beat when I thought about what might be in store for the two officers inside if this devolves into rioting ch"v. Then I thought how strange, to feel like those whose job is to protect us are not even strong enough to keep themselves safe...

And then I thought imagine looking at those cops and thinking not only can't they protect us but they pose a huge danger to us? That they would crack down hard on me for a slight offense for no real reason? It was a tiny bit of what it must feel like for millions of dark-skinned Americans.

petiteruchy ↓

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 9:01 pm

You may be shocked to know, BM, that your "professional black friends" may not be comfortable or interested in denying your impression of prejudice and racism in America today. Interestingly, people tend to get frustrated and bored of discussing just how terrible and criminal their communities are.

Not only that, seeing how Black people are actually individuals, there are those who do deny the systemic issues and engage in what is called " respectability politics" which is essentially when someone whose family has become wealthy/educated/integrated into white culture starts believing that they managed it on their own, so everyone else should too, if only they left behind their language/culture and started acting like white people.

↑ marina ↓

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 10:21 pm

Quote:

I hate racism just as much as you do. But you cannot point to 'disparities' brought onto people largely by their own choices and yell 'racism' or 'bigot'. For any of those examples, bring me a clear example of actual RACISM! (For example, in the case of Latoya vs. Jane, bring me facts, bring me a case, bring me the company who is systematically doing this today - and we will fight them together. You have my word.)

This is not going to work. For every example I give, you will just find a way to claim that it is black pple's fault. Here are two examples of institutional racism:

1. People with white names are more likely to be called back for an interview than people with black names, all else held equal. http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873

2. Unarmed black civilians are 3x as likely to be killed by police as unarmed white civilians, regardless of crime rates in that area. http://journals.plos.org/ploso.....41854

Now you will tell me its those people's fault for naming their kids LaToya or it's LaToya's fault that some other black person was violent towards police or whatever. Right? It's possible to do this in any discussion of any kind of bigotry or anti semitism or any prejudice at all- it's always easy to find a way to blame the victim.

↑ marina ↓

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 10:29 pm

I wrote:

Quote:

5. I don't care how many black people you have worked with in your life - if you're still not sure that racism exists, that number is not enough.

You responded :

Quote:

5. The amount of black people I've worked with actually does make a difference. Contrary to what you might believe, many of them actually shared sentiments closer to my views than to yours - or do you not consider those people 'real black people'?

I wrote:

Quote:

I just want to clarify what you're saying now. You've worked with many black people, most of whom think there's no institutional / systemic racism?

And you responded with a whole thing about the group being open to hearing different views and taking responsibility for social problems and they DO have brains and shame on me etc :

Quote:

Yes, the many black people with whom I've worked were open to hearing different point of views about oppression, the newly constructed definition of 'racism', and about the responsibility of many of the social problems within this group. The fact that you find it so hard to believe saddens me, for it shows what a low opinion you have of your fellow black citizens. Shame on you. They DO have brains, you know.

Let's try again.

I am not asking whether many of the black people you worked with understand the problems in their own community, etc. I know the answer to that. I am asking if most of the black people you worked with told you there was no such thing as institutional or systemic racism, if they thought that racism had all disappeared and they were treated equally. Don't blend the questions, just answer that one.

Last edited by marina on Sun, Jul 10 2016, 10:53 pm; edited 2 times in total

↑ m in Israel

Sun, Jul 10 2016, 10:34 pm

marina wrote:

I think now it's best to separate our points:

Quote:

People in colleges blocking certain speakers from coming to events are blocking free speech. ...

Still no. If a publicly-funded university bars a student from protesting a speaker, then that student's free speech has been violated. If a publicly-funded university allows speakers on one-view point only, then it is very likely that the university risks violating the First Amendment. The actor has to the be the university, not anyone else.

To take this a step further, "people" other than the university (I.e. students or outside individuals) attempting to block certain speakers from coming to events are actually exercising their right to free speech!! Part of free speech is the right to protest against what others are saying. And although the first amendment actually was intended to prevent the government from controlling/limiting political speech, the broader concept is really to allow the "free marketplace of ideas" which is so essential to a democracy. Part of that includes the right of individuals (including college students) to choose which voices they want to support and which they don't. It is not about giving everyone "equal time" in the private sphere -- it is about the government staying out of the process, and every individual having an equal shot at making their voice heard.