Will Humans want to alter their bodies to become 4 legged?

↑ Scrabble123 ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 11:47 am

fmt4 wrote:

I am not disgusted and what my religion says doesn't really make such a big difference to me in this matter. I just have trouble believing that plastic surgery and hormones can change someone from one gender to another. And I don't want to be labeled as a bad person by society because of that.

What makes someone one s*x over the other IYO?

Last edited by Scrabble123 on Wed, Jun 03 2015, 3:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ MagentaYenta ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 11:48 am

amother wrote:

...
Anyway, the FACT that they regret the surgery is a red herring. The real issue is, Why are these people being bullied by the very people who supported them in having the surgery??

Because the LGBT community is made up of individuals and not all hold the same opinions nor do they express them in a conformist way.

I've read a couple of books by trans individuals who have had full surgeries. The tend to discuss some of the difficulties in recovery or some of the minor complications that can occur. If you have the names of any books or links to individual testimonies of the 20% of who regret their surgery I'll love to read them. I'm not afraid of hearing the whys of their individual choices and I welcome learning.

↑ Barbara ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 11:51 am

amother wrote:

Would be interested to see your cite. The cite would also have to explain how pollsters got around the fear of reprisal of people who regretted the surgery and are therefore not speaking about their feelings to anyone--but nevertheless shared their feelings openly with pollsters.

Still not addressing the issue of WHY the promoters of equality should be intimidating people who have received the surgery from publicizing their experiences. If their agenda was freedom of speech, they would be supportive. (Hint: that's not their agenda.)

Regarding the name-calling you mentioned. I've only skimmed through this thread, but assuming that people wrote what you say, AND assuming that this is representative of the general population, AND assuming that people with gender identity issues feel a constant sense of hate coming from most of the population--that still can just as easily explain why they WANT to have the surgery, as why they REGRET having it.

Anyway, the FACT that they regret the surgery is a red herring. The real issue is, Why are these people being bullied by the very people who supported them in having the surgery??

Presidential candidate Mike Huckabee has recently mocked transgendered people. And he's still in the hunt for the presidency. Michelle Duggar has famously conflated transgendered people with child molesters. And Huckabee has come darned close to the same, with fear mongering about children being in a public restroom with a transgendered person.

In any case, please provide at least 5 articles from reliable sources about intimidation of transgendered people from speaking out against surgery. Further, explain what "fear of reprisals" you think there are against anyone who says she regrets surgery, and provide 5 articles from reliable sources about such reprisals.

amother

↑ Lime ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 12:06 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

http://www.amazon.com/Gender-H.....808P3
disclaimer: I haven't read the whole book, only perused the few pages available through google docs

amother

↑ Lime ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 12:15 pm

Barbara wrote:

Ok. Are you saying a handful of bigoted celebrities and politicians are driving people to suicide?

You ask me for cites but you haven't provided a cite for the 20% regret, or for demonstrating that bigotry and hatred are widespread and causing people to act self-destructively. Anyway I don't have time to research this now. You asked earlier in the thread why people don't have empathy, and I was attempting to explain a different position--that it's not about empathy for individuals, but a fear of a radical-left agenda.

↑ DrMom ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 12:17 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

It is their right to address it as they wish in their home, but schools may teach what has been deemed emotionally, socially, intellectually, and psychologically appropriate for specific ages. Parents who disagree with the Man Landing on the Moon, Gay Marriage, or with teaching their children about Martin Luther King can choose to supplement their own ideals and thoughts on the matter in their homes.

Just to clarify:

You think that the states which currently have opt-out options for sx-ed classes should eliminate them?

If so, I would not be surprised.

I would not be surprised if sx-ed classes including radical leftist agendas soon become compulsary for receiving federal funding. Anyone who does not want this radical agenda shoved down their child's throat will be forced to homeschool or send to private schools.

Because someone with an agenda deemed this is "emotionally, socially, intellectually, and psychologically appropriate" for primary school students.

↑ Barbara ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 12:25 pm

amother wrote:

So we can assume that you made it all up. Because otherwise, you'd have the research.

BTW, see this re 20% figure, for example
http://waltheyer.typepad.com/b......html

↑ Barbara ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 12:27 pm

DrMom wrote:

What is a "radical left agenda" for teaching z3x ed?

↑ DrMom ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 12:34 pm

Barbara wrote:

What is a "radical left agenda" for teaching z3x ed?

I explained this upthread.

Note that I don't mean sx ed as limited to "women have a uterus and fallopian tubes and ovaries which produce eggs, etc." I am speaking about the ever more raunchy, explicit, and not imo age-appropriate curricula about human sxuality and gender which have made many headlines in recent years.

↑ gp2.0 ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 12:44 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

That's pretty judgmental. I actually think that many individuals would benefit both aesthetically and medically from a nose job, although I did pass on one and so do many others (it's the individual's choice). Also, getting braces for a child above 16 is basically fully cosmetic: do you feel the same way about braces? Unless your child had regular check up with an orthodontist starting at age 5 or 6 and worked on accurately aligning his/her jaw, braces at 16 are not only simply cosmetic but actually can irritate an imperfectly placed jaw (which btw most individuals have). Are braces any different than an nose job then according to you? I actually don't really have opinions about what work other individuals are having done because it's not my business and I'm pretty surprised that you're passing judgment like that. Not every cosmetic change is a result of not accepting yourself as who you are and assuming such is inaccurate. It's always healthy to feel good about yourself and your true talents and qualifications, but any cosmetic surgery does not mean that you lacked a sense of self and self-esteem.

Yes, I do feel the same way about braces on teeth. In the vast majority of cases, they are unnecessary and they ruin the jaw and weaken the teeth. I'd rather have imperfect teeth that are strong than perfect teeth that are weak.

I don't see why I can't have judgmental opinions about what other people are doing. The problem is only if I make them feel uncomfortable or try to influence their choice or give them an unsolicited opinion, which I would NEVER do. I fully support people making their own choices, even if I think their choices are bizarre, crazy or just plain stupid, as long as they aren't hurting themselves or anyone else. However, that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to have an opinion about their choices. Good god, are we no longer allowed independent thought? Are you being judgmental about my independent thoughts? Twisted Evil

↑ Barbara ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 12:48 pm

DrMom wrote:

I've perused the thread and cannot find it. Want to give me a hand, please.

↑ Barbara ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 1:14 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

Actually, IMNSHO, you have every right to have opinions, no matter how wrong-headed they are. Wink

So long as you don't discriminate, and don't treat others badly, that's fine with me.

amother

↑ Lime ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 1:24 pm

Barbara wrote:

So we can assume that you made it all up. Because otherwise, you'd have the research.

BTW, see this re 20% figure, for example
http://waltheyer.typepad.com/b......html

Ugh. Ok I wasn't planning to continue this argument but your bait worked (that if I don't respond then it means I made it up). Crying

The book I linked slightly upthread discusses policing by the activists of those who regret surgery (if you google the book and the word "policing" you may be able to view some pages).

Here's a blog where someone discusses being banned from Reddit for sharing his regret.
http://thirdwaytrans.com/2014/.....oubt/

Your cite was interesting. It seems to be a personal blog, but it references The Guardian. The Guardian article does not say that 80% of people who had the surgery are happy; far from it. The article does say that, as you said, a fifth of people are unhappy with the surgery, and that 18% have attempted suicide. Note that this figure seems to be from 1998, so who knows. The article describes how difficult it is to conduct patient follow-up, stating that more than HALF of study participants have been lost track of!

(ftr, that silly hug wasn't from me)

↑ Scrabble123 ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 1:46 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

Yes, you're entitled to your "judgments," I just found the suggestion that individual who undergo selective plastic surgery to not be healthy to be inappropriate and inaccurate. I was actually surprised that it was coming from you since I'm pretty familiar with your kind posts. It's possible I misunderstood your intentions and thanks for clarifying.

↑ Scrabble123 ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 1:48 pm

fmt4 wrote:

I think that if you are born one gender that that is what you are for life, no matter how much you may feel like the other gender. But I feel great sympathy for those that feel that way, though unfortunately I don't think it can be changed.

What about intersex babies?

How would you define gender and s*x scientifically?

What do you feel is the difference between the x and Y chromosome and what impact they have on a child?

And how do you feel about certain species that are able to change from male to female or vice versa?

I'm asking these questions because I would like to understand your answers to them so I can better understand what you are saying.

Last edited by Scrabble123 on Wed, Jun 03 2015, 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ MagentaYenta ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 2:33 pm

amother wrote:

http://www.amazon.com/Gender-Hurts-Feminist-Analysis-Transgenderism/dp/0415539404/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1433357951&sr=8-1&keywords=gender+hurts&pebp=1433357952365&perid=1ZJ6TX8KJEM5PRX808P3
disclaimer: I haven't read the whole book, only perused the few pages available through google docs

Oh so I get to buy the book and prove your claims? LoL

tigerwife ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 2:34 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

What about intersex babies?

How would you define gender scientifically?

What do you feel is the difference between the x and Y chromosome and what impact they have on a child?

And how do you feel about certain species that are able to change change from male to female?

I'm asking these questions because I would like to understand your answers to them so I can better understand what you are saying.

Which species can change gender? I've never heard of that.

I'm interested in hearing your explatnation since it does seem like you've researched this topic. I personally do think that gender is innate and even if a man transplants organs and takes hormones and insists on being called by female pronouns, they are simply a man who transplanted organs, takes hormones, and is called by female pronouns. I don't mean to disrespect them, but if I were to be honest I would comply with their wishes to humor them. It never hurts to respect someone's wishes.

I'm thinking of an example- like if a woman gives birth to a boy, she is nidda for 7 days but if she gives birth to a girl, the nidda extends to 14 days (ha! As if it is ever that little!). It's explained that a woman has the power to create, as in more holiness, and therefore there is more 'tumah' in the loss (ok- someone will have to explain that better than me). Can the ability to create- as in, 'grow' a baby and give birth- be the barometer? Hmm, but then what about seahorses, where the father is the one who carries the babies?

What about intersex babies? Wasn't there a pregnant man in the news years ago (did he ever give birth)? So what determines their gender? I don't think it's fair to lump these people together with transgender people, though.

What about women's intuition? What about attraction? Ok I'll stop now. It's a thought provoking topic.