Will Humans want to alter their bodies to become 4 legged?

chavs ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 12:49 pm

zohar wrote:

There is a difference between Man on the Moon and Gay marriage. One is history and fact. There is also a difference between teaching what the legal status is on Gay Marriage and glorifying the LGBT community to children and preaching that anyone who is anti Gay marriage is a bigoted, hateful and evil person.

There is also a huge difference in glorifying something and just being respectful.
Honestly, seeing so many ppl being disrespectful, making fun etc, I'm gonna go with the view that it should be taught in schools so today's children have a chance at being nicer and more tolerant ppl.

Last edited by chavs on Wed, Jun 03 2015, 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ Scrabble123 ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 12:50 pm

zohar wrote:

One is history and one is factual? I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to say here? What is history if not a compilation of what we understand to be factual evidence? History is not a bunch of opinions? It's the synthesis of factual evidence and psychological societies. Well, that's actually more anthropological. African American rights, Women's rights, and the rights of those with different s*xual and geneder preferences is actually apart of American History in and of itself. Anyways, teaching about people with different gender and s*xual preferences is an important way to be tolerant not just towards those individuals, but towards all individuals: including your ultra frum neighbor.

Children in elementary school make projects about their families. The family unit in the US today does not always consist of Mommy, Daddy, Sara & John & it's of the utmost importance that children recognize that FACT. Fact: Some children have divorced parents, some children have two Daddys who are married, some children may have a sister that was born a boy. Learning the FACTS that are applicable today will help teach tolerance, understand, respect, and build better, more productive children who will interact with all types of individuals in society. If you want to live in a bubble, then do so, but please don't take advantage of Western life and the responsibility: both emotional and intellectual that comes along with it.

↑ chavs ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 12:59 pm

zohar wrote:

I see a few assumptions being made here.
#1. There is consensus in the medical field that transgenderism is not a mental illness. This is not the case. Many well respected psychiatrists and medical institutions feel it is a body dysmorphic disorder and the transgendered person's feelings and identity do not reflect reality.

Psychiatrists also used to call homosexuality a mental illness. We know now that it isn't a mental illness (if nothing else the torah doesn't address it as such).

#2. Surgery is the solution. Patients are "happy" after surgery and hormone treatments to change their gender. This is not reflected in reality. There was a study in Sweden that followed 324 people who have undergone relations reassignment surgery. Starting a decade after surgery, many seemed to have an increase of mental issues. Their suicide rate is astronomically high. 20 times higher than the general population.

First of all depression is very common in anyone having gone through major surgery, such as a transplant.
Secondly being constantly unset attack and made fun of would make most ppl depressed. I'm straight, so have no personal stakes in this, and find it sad and depressing to read.

#3. Children who feel that they were born the wrong gender will always have these feelings throughout their lives. Two separate studies followed these children and found that 70%-80% spontaneously lost these feelings. The remaining children retained some to all of those feelings. Anecdotally, we know this to be true. I am not worried about my 3 year old dd who tells me she is a boy and wants to wear pants and be a tatty. She will out grow it just like my tomboy sister and my male neighbor who liked to wear pocketbooks, heels and sparkly necklaces.

We are not talking about children who merely dress up in clothes of the opposite gender however, it's a lot more complicated then that.

The above is mostly a summery of an article by Dr. Paul McHugh the former psychiatrist in chief at John Hopkins Hospital and is currently professor there. Transgender Surgery Isn't the Solution

While this article is interesting, it doesn't proove anything.
It also doesn't explain why everyone have such strong opinions on this, when they're are frankly much bigger things going on in the world!
At the end of the day, a non jewish person who undergoes complicated surgery to enhance their life is not breaking any halacha.

Last edited by chavs on Wed, Jun 03 2015, 1:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ zohar ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 1:01 pm

Barbara wrote:

I agree completely.

There is this group of people out there who say that their religion requires them to slice off a part of their infant sons' p3nis. Why can't the government outlaw this barbaric practice? It's a slippery slope to parents slicing off their babies' arms or legs.

And, you know, 40% of transgender and nonconforming gender teens in the US attempt suicide. BH, though, we can continue to marginalize and ridicule them, telling them that they are no different from a guy who walks around in a dog suit. Because then maybe we can increase the rate to 100%.

I am not marginalizing and ridiculing them. I am saying that they need help not surgery. Especially seeing your disturbing statistic about suicide rates among transgender teens. We are not ridiculing them. We are ridiculing the notion that this is NORMAL. Is it cruel of us not to consider anorexia to be normal. Many psychiatrist feel that both of these conditions fall under body dismorphia.

And are you actually comparing a very wide spread medical practice (not just religious) with medical benefits where the fore skin is removed to cutting off an entire functioning organ? Also, circumcision has been practiced for millennia and we have not seen the "slippery slope" phenomenon actualize whereas, in the social issues arena we have seen this slippery slope. 20 years ago, people rolled their eyes when people warned of gay marriage becoming legal. Only a few years ago out tolerant president was also anti gay marriage. You yourself probably would not have believed that transgenderism would be considered normal only a decade ago.

↑ zohar

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 1:06 pm

chavs wrote:

The reason there is such strong feelings about it is because it is being glorified and shoved in our faces and we are told that we must accept this as normal and if not we are labeled as bigoted, cruel, ignorant and have no compassion. Also we feel these people are being misguided. And thirdly, those of us who feel it is an illness did not make this the big news of the day. It is the pro gender reassignment crowd that is making it a huge story.

↑ chavs

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 1:13 pm

zohar wrote:

This time it's my turn to agree with you completely. I take my hat of to you (although not literally, as I Chas vesholom,wouldn't want my hair to show). Anyways, I agree, it's been a slippery slope! From female equal rights (voting!?!), to blacks and Jews being allowed on the same buses and benches as white ppl, to gay marriage. It's indeed been a slippery slope! It's a terrible she we've been living in!
Personally I vote that we go back to the middle ages where women with cats got burned at the stake!

↑ Barbara ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 1:27 pm

zohar wrote:

A friend of mine, who happens to be gay, is now in compassionate care for advanced cancer. BH, HIPAA allows the doctors to give information to her wonderful wife, who has been her partner for more than 25 years. And anyone who would deny her the right to be informed, to make decisions, to be there -- all of which are a direct result of gay marriage -- is indeed a bigoted, hateful and evil person.

marina ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 1:38 pm

First, I think many of us are being too harsh on OP. Transgenderism (?) is a relatively new issue -at least in terms of as much publicity as it is receiving now. And let's remember that it is a radical change. Our gender identities are one of the most basic ways we define ourselves. So it is somewhat natural to be surprised and even uncomfortable with the idea that the very most basic things about us can be changed.

Say, for example, science came up with a way to remove our heads and get entirely new ones. Or body suits that made you look like anything or anyone else. We would find that very strange and uncomfortable- at least for a decade or two.

So, yes, everyone should be compassionate and polite, but those of us who are more (or completely) comfortable with transgender individuals should have a little more patience with those who need more time.

↑ marina ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 1:41 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I have not read all of the replies at all, but I am amazed at the ignorance on this board. If you are going to answer a thread, at least know what you are talking about.
These people who are having surgeries are not just having plastic surgeries. Many of them are having s@x changes as in changing their organs and taking hormones so that they can either transition to a woman (adding breasts) or transition to a man (more pronounced adams apple or deeper voice) It is not only cosmetic. It is much deeper than that.
There was a show on, I think netflix, I saw it online here in Israel, called transparent. I thought it was both extremely informative and sad at the same time.
So again, before people say things, know what the heck you are talking about.
Can you imagine the pain that such a person goes through in life to want to change their entire body? Thats not something that one thinks up over night. Such pain is probably awful. Think of that.

I think that plastic surgery may be a good way to look at this, actually. People get nose jobs, boob jobs, new bottoms and thighs and tummies. And largely, we, as a society, don't care. Good for them, whatever. I think eventually the approach towards transgender individuals should be the same. Whatever, you want to change this and that part instead of that one and this one? Who cares.

I imagine transgender individuals don't ultimately want to be pitied and seen as constantly in awful pain. I imagine they just ultimately want to be seen as a normal segment of society who change certain parts of themselves and it's okay.

↑ marina ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 1:52 pm

zohar wrote:

I think there's a big difference between teaching tolerance /respect and "glorifying" different life choices. When my children's school teaches tolerance and respect for secular people, those who choose not to be observant, I don't think they are glorifying that lifestyle. Likewise, if my child learns to be respectful to gay people, I don't think my child is being forcefed some sort of glorification.

I don't even know what glorification means in this context. Do you imagine that many schools out there teach middle school kids about how awesome particular sekx acts are? Or the glory that comes with being made fun of and ridiculed by many segments of society?

You also are worried that people will find you bigoted and hateful because you are anti Gay marriage. That depends largely on how you frame it. It's very different to say, "hey my religion doesn't approve, but I don't force my opinions on anyone and I don't think my government should either," from saying "God hates fags and you will all burn in hell."

↑ gp2.0 ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 1:52 pm

marina wrote:

That's interesting, I was just thinking about this in terms of plastic surgery. Except I feel sorry for people who have elective cosmetic surgery to remove or change natural, normal things such as a big nose or wrinkles. I feel it would be healthier for them to accept themselves as they are. I feel more compassionate toward people who have cosmetic surgery to reconstruct their skin after a bad burn or some kind of disfigurement.

The question then is what camp transgender people fall into. They feel like they're in the second camp and they're disfigured but to many of us it seems more like they're in the first camp and just because they can't come to terms with their gender (or their age, or their race, in people who change things like wrinkles or skin color) doesn't mean they should have surgery, maybe it means they should just accept themselves for who they are inside without changing their exterior.

↑ marina ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 1:56 pm

zohar wrote:

Nah. The reason there's such strong feelings about it is because (1) it's new and different; and (2) it's about S-E-X, which everyone loves to talk about.

Nothing is being glorified, it is being normalized. Do you know the difference?

If you don't want to accept this as normal, think about why and frame it accurately. Are you personally disgusted by the idea? Then you might have some work to do. Are you okay with it, but think your religion doesn't approve? Then frame it carefully and that way and most people will be okay with it.

↑ marina ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 2:00 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

I don't know. Say there was a magic elixir of youth and you could stay 25 for a long long time. You'd judge everyone who took it and just insist that they should be happy with themselves? Or people who decided to change their race or ethnicity, if such a thing were possible? Or mmmmm.... religion? People change their religion all the time and we don't tell them to just be happy with themselves.

amother

↑ Lime ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 2:00 pm

Barbara wrote:

I agree completely.

And, you know, 40% of transgender and nonconforming gender teens in the US attempt suicide. BH, though, we can continue to marginalize and ridicule them, telling them that they are no different from a guy who walks around in a dog suit. Because then maybe we can increase the rate to 100%.

A high percentage of those who have the surgery regret it and end up committing suicide, as well. Although exact numbers are hard to come by due to intimidation and bullying by the very lobby that seeks to promote "equality" and surgery for anyone who wants it.

This is worse than hypocrisy. It's an agenda.

↑ marina ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 2:04 pm

Upon further consideration, I also think that part of the harshness towards transgender individuals is because we as a society are not particularly accepting of people's inner dynamics and their internal reasons for wanting this change. I think many people are thinking, Jeez, who cares that you "feel" like a woman? Get over it!

In contrast, say, a woman from Sudan had the operation to become a man, and said: look, I did this because it is dangerous to be a female in my country. I've been raped countless times, I've been sold into s-xual slavery, I've been treated worse than dirt and I'm tired of it, so now I will be a man.

We would still find that unusual, but we'd be WAY less critical, I think. So it's more about the reason than the actual act.

↑ sequoia ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 2:05 pm

I have no patience with people who see "glorification" anywhere in this dialogue. What does that even mean?! Just because you have black-and-white thinking, in which there's one right way to be glorified and every other way to be deplored, doesn't mean others do.

If you're a transgender person, some surgery or treatment may work for you. Just because it works for you doesn't mean it's right for anyone else. It's not being foisted on anyone.

Get it?

A whole different way of thinking.

Of course if you believe that everything is either required or forbidden, you'll see scary things everywhere. But most things are neither. Most things are optional.

↑ Scrabble123 ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 2:06 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

Except I feel sorry for people who have elective cosmetic surgery to remove or change natural, normal things such as a big nose or wrinkles. I feel it would be healthier for them to accept themselves as they are. I feel more compassionate toward people who have cosmetic surgery to reconstruct their skin after a bad burn or some kind of disfigurement.

That's pretty judgmental. I actually think that many individuals would benefit both aesthetically and medically from a nose job, although I did pass on one and so do many others (it's the individual's choice). Also, getting braces for a child above 16 is basically fully cosmetic: do you feel the same way about braces? Unless your child had regular check up with an orthodontist starting at age 5 or 6 and worked on accurately aligning his/her jaw, braces at 16 are not only simply cosmetic but actually can irritate an imperfectly placed jaw (which btw most individuals have). Are braces any different than an nose job then according to you? I actually don't really have opinions about what work other individuals are having done because it's not my business and I'm pretty surprised that you're passing judgment like that. Not every cosmetic change is a result of not accepting yourself as who you are and assuming such is inaccurate. It's always healthy to feel good about yourself and your true talents and qualifications, but any cosmetic surgery does not mean that you lacked a sense of self and self-esteem.

↑ Barbara ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 2:13 pm

amother wrote:

20% regret the surgery. Meaning that 80% don't.

As to the post-surgical suicide rate, I'd hazard a guess that the fact that there are people out there saying they're no different from someone who would like to become dogs, who claim that they're all pedophiles and need to be kept away from children, who publicly mock them, who object to them being treated with the respect due any human, contributes to that.

↑ fmt4 ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 2:27 pm

marina wrote:

I am not disgusted and what my religion says doesn't really make such a big difference to me in this matter. I just have trouble believing that plastic surgery and hormones can change someone from one gender to another. And I don't want to be labeled as a bad person by society because of that.

amother

↑ Lime ↓

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 2:41 pm

Barbara wrote:

Would be interested to see your cite. The cite would also have to explain how pollsters got around the fear of reprisal of people who regretted the surgery and are therefore not speaking about their feelings to anyone--but nevertheless shared their feelings openly with pollsters.

Still not addressing the issue of WHY the promoters of equality should be intimidating people who have received the surgery from publicizing their experiences. If their agenda was freedom of speech, they would be supportive. (Hint: that's not their agenda.)

Regarding the name-calling you mentioned. I've only skimmed through this thread, but assuming that people wrote what you say, AND assuming that this is representative of the general population, AND assuming that people with gender identity issues feel a constant sense of hate coming from most of the population--that still can just as easily explain why they WANT to have the surgery, as why they REGRET having it.

Anyway, the FACT that they regret the surgery is a red herring. The real issue is, Why are these people being bullied by the very people who supported them in having the surgery??