Frum Survivor Sima tells her story publicly for the 1st time

↑ imasoftov ↓

Sun, Mar 29 2015, 6:33 am

amother wrote:

Don't blame the victim!
In high school and seminary I saw girls flirting with the rebbeim. They clearly didn't understand what they were doing (possibly due to a sheltered upbringing). This was more common with an outgoing personality.
I could see where a man could be tempted, BUT THE GIRL IS NOT ASKING FOR ANYTHING. She's just being her fun friendly self. If a man is planning to step into such an environment, he must set up safeguards first.

Even if she would have been asking the man would still obligated to overcome temptation, as an adult, a teacher and authority figure (how much more so in a religious institution), and a person committed to observance of mitzvot.

↑ greenfire ↓

Sun, Mar 29 2015, 10:05 am

amother wrote:

Hugs for Sima and I admire her Strenth to come forward with her story.

As a woman who was melestred as a child I had some veiws on this issue like many ppl commented here. These guys r bad and we need to publicize this and destroy their life..... But now as a wife of a relations addict I understand things a bit better. It's a desease, they r not bad ppl but sick ppl. YES we need to protect out children!
Another point is : some girls that came out with their story In my community R good and dirty. They claim melestered/rape, but the truth is : they asked for it...... It doesn't give the adult a freeway bec they should have know that u don't start up with a minor but... These girls coming fwr r not always so truthful .

Ps. No healing comes about from publisizing a story besides for hate. If u want to heal, u work throught it, if u want revenge, u poblisize it. That is my experience!

quite a hypocritical post ... you're making excuses for the molesters ... shocking considering what you yourself claim you went through ... were you 'good & dirty' ? nobody is ever deserving of being abused - not zexually, not physically, not maritally - NOTHING could excuse it NADA - NEVER !!!

↑ Learning ↓

Sun, Mar 29 2015, 11:33 am

amother wrote:

No, I don't know him in any way shape or form. How do you know the rabbis sent him to therapy? It can all be part of made up story. We are hearing only one angle and that is hers. That does not make any of her accusations fact. She says there are other girls. Who are they? No one else came forward publicly. And the organization is not God and they were there when the alleged incidents occurred so they can't possible know for sure. In most cases they have a guy who was found guilty in court. In this case they have nothing. Like I said, that doesn't make him innocent but it sure as hell doesn't prove guilt.

And in terms of him hiding or omiting his name from his website--how would you react if you were accused of such crimes? Wouldn't you want to lay low and make yourself appear as innocent as possible and as far away from children as can be? That's not admission of guilt.

It's powderblue amother who is supporting the molester. I like the color coded amother but the color show when you quote the amother.

octopus

Sun, Mar 29 2015, 11:36 am

ora_43 wrote:

Bar/bat mitzvah is the minimum age for becoming an adult, but not the maximum. In a society where a 12/13-year-old is an adult for every purpose - including the ability to support themselves, legal independence, ability to be a full member of adult society, etc - then a 12/13-year-old is also an adult in terms of s-xual relationships. (which doesn't mean that they'd be guilty of "seducing" an older person, only that they'd be an equal partner, and could marry someone much older. seduction in the biblical sense is only something a man can do to a young woman, IIRC)

But today's society, in the western world at least, isn't like that. So a 12/13-year-old is not a full adult under halacha, and that includes in terms of s-xual relationships. Halacha in this case is affected by the "facts on the ground" in terms of what teens can and can't legally do. Parents have a halachic obligation to support their teenage children financially. And adults have a halachic obligation not to abuse them.

In any case, seduction is prohibited even between adults. A man once - 1,000 years ago - could have multiple wives, but it was never allowed for a man to seduce a woman without committing to her.

And causing emotional pain is prohibited between any two people, including adults.

I think that if anyone says it's "not that big an aveira," they're showing serious ignorance. It's ridiculous to say it's "not so big" to deliberately cause another person severe pain. Read Tanach to see what it says about people being makpid on technicalities while hurting others.

While a 12/13 year old are responsible for halachos they are not a bar or bas onshim until they are 20. So this age between 12/13- 20 accounts for an imbetween time (teenagehood?) where they may be "adults" but not full fledged adults bidei shamayim. If that makes anyone feel any better. The torah doesn't say you are an adult when you are bar or bas mitzvah. You are somewhat imbetween.

↑ granolamom

Sun, Mar 29 2015, 12:45 pm

amother wrote:

Sadly, abusers often pick the victims least likely to be believed, for whatever reason.

Children never ask for it, and never deserve it, despite what they may do inappropriately. Their judgement is skewed, they're not asking for it even when they're asking for it .

I was horrified once to hear that halachically a girl over bas mitzvah is not a child in this regard... meaning she can be held responsible for seducing an adult man... and it's not that big of an aveirah for the man because he is technically permitted to take another wife and only because of the cherem etc etc.

Anyone please tell me this is not true, halachically??? I know what the law says. Please tell me the Torah protects young girls??

I am for sure not the most learned here, but I heard something about a gemarra referring to the fee a rapist must pay his victim's father. something to the effect that she (victim) is considered a 'naara' only if between the ages of 12 and 12.5 or something like that, between the age of puberty onset and the age where she could have instigated the relationship. the fee paid was to make up for the girls decreased market value. I dont really remember it well, but maybe thats what you heard? anyway I dont think that would determine todays halachic ruling.

amother

↑ Vermilion ↓

Sun, Mar 29 2015, 1:10 pm

granolamom wrote:

I heard it in the context of a convicted molestor "not deserving such harsh sentence" because of this halacha or whatever it is. Beis din would've made him pay the father in fartig. Or if she seduced him, it's not his fault at all. Etc etc.

Also, I've heard the harsh sentence in that case used as proof why taking these crimes to court instead of beis din is the wrong thing to do, etc.

The discussion made me ill. I wanted counter arguments in my head. Thanks for everyone, ora, granolamom, and others, who are helping me clarify this. You made me feel better.

amother

↑ Powderblue ↓

Sun, Mar 29 2015, 1:44 pm

Learning wrote:

Your points are not valid. You are hiding behind amother. This case is very clear. Nobody. Absolutely nobody denied the molester's guilt. Not the rabbis. Not him. Not his family and friends. He molested other girls also. You are trying to blame snd discredit the victim. With no proof. You clearly have an agenda here.

What's not valid about them? She just came out with her story and no one else spoke publicly. That's not an admission of guilt. I'm not blaming her. Just saying I don't take her story as fact based on her word alone. She has no proof either. So why take her word as fact with no evidence of anything else from anywhere else?

And no, I'm not supporting him. I'm just not believing her story based on her word only.

amother

Lemon

Sun, Mar 29 2015, 2:00 pm

Amother, I am wondering in what context you don't believe her? Does this man work for you and you are considering if you have to fire him? I can understand you might want more proof before firing him on one person's word alone. Or is he your son, and you are considering to what extent you need to rehabilitate him? Or is he trying to do a shidduch with your daughter? Because if you do have a personal connection to him, to the extent that his guilt or innocence will make a difference in terms of how you treat him, then I can understand your harping on this point. But if not, then I wonder what is the point of you posting that you question the victim.

As Sima herself said, and as many other survivors have said, the abuse is only half as bad as the silencing that comes when they try to open up. Why would you want to be part of the silencing?

As someone else pointed out earlier in this thread, the rabbi's did not question her validity. They very much believed her, to the point where they relocated him to another community. This was obviously the wrong way to deal with it, but they did deal with it, they didn't say she was wrong. I personally know a story that some of these same Rabbi's dealt with where they didn't believe the accusations, and they guided the man accused in how to counter the accusations, rather than deal with removing him from the abuse. So if they believed her, why don't you?

More survivors will be inspired by her speech. More people will start talking. I will start talking, as soon as I get the nerve. But as long as people like you continue to "disbelieve" without question, we are scared into silence. Your abuse is working, your questioning a survivor's testimony is encouraging other survivors to be quiet, to suffer in silence, to allow the molesters to continue to abuse others. But it won't last forever, because her bravery also works, and her publicly telling her story is empowering, and the power of Truth will be stronger than the abuse. I know, because the internal struggle in me right now is real, and I can feel Truth winning out over Shame. Maybe I should watch the other survivors stories to get stronger. Hopefully, one day, someone will be empowered by my story.

Maybe that person will be you, Amother.

amother

↑ Powderblue ↓

Sun, Mar 29 2015, 2:41 pm

amother wrote:

I have absolutely no connection to him at all. His story wont affect me personally most likely because I don't live anywhere near him and don't know anyone that does. I do however know someone who was very hurt by false accusations. Someone trying to get revenge for something else entirely that was not s-xual at all in nature. That person anonymously emailed a blog that posted their untrue story and destroyed this persons life. There was never another source for that story and never a conviction but the damage was done. Because "clearly no one will make such a thing up". And we don't know that the rabbis sent him out of town we only know that she says that. I have yet to hear of any of them coming out and admitting to any part in this at all. All the facts people are posting here to discredit my views are just repeating things that she said. So far there are no other sources. Again, that does not mean her story is untrue. It just means that we also don't know that it is true based on her word alone. I know I don't know her personally and it doesn't sound like anyone posting here does so I'm not sure why everyone is so convinced that it is true.

↑ rosehill

Sun, Mar 29 2015, 2:55 pm

amother wrote:

Because she didn't put it on an anonymous blog; she publicly told the story with her own face and name.
I don't know what legal advice she was given regarding naming the accused, but she named the four rabbis. I find it hard to believe that she sought revenge against five separate individuals, and came up with this story in order to do so.

She had much to lose by doing this publicly. I'm sorry for what happened to your acquaintance, but this is a completely different story.

↑ Barbara ↓

Sun, Mar 29 2015, 2:57 pm

amother wrote:

And how do we know any of this is true?

For all we know, the person who you say was innocent is actually your husband, and while you believe his lies, he is raping little boys.

Or for all we know, this pig who molested Sima is your husband, and you get your rocks off by hearing his stories about what he does to little girls.

After all, you're hiding behind a rose to attack a woman who went on record, bared her soul, and told her story.

And by the way, while Sima accuses a Chabad rabbi of trying to stop her from saying the molester's name, accuses him of not taking sufficient action, and while AIUI, the molester was, at least at that time, associated with Chabad, note that Chabad has the tape on its website without challenge to it.http://crownheights.info/chabad-news/478383/csa-survivor-breaks-her-silence/ (And kol hakavod to the people at Chabad who posted it.)

amother

↑ Powderblue ↓

Sun, Mar 29 2015, 3:05 pm

Barbara wrote:

My husband thank god was never accused of such crimes but even if the person in question was my husband the points would still be valid. We still only have her word.