Frum Survivor Sima tells her story publicly for the 1st time

amother

↑ Powderblue ↓

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 1:11 pm

Learning wrote:

Who are you?? Why are you amother? Are you friends or family of the molester? The rabbis send him to therapy. If it wasn't true he wouldn't go hiding and omit his name from the website. There are other girls accusing him. The organization that set up this evening won't let her say it if it wasn't true.

No, I don't know him in any way shape or form. How do you know the rabbis sent him to therapy? It can all be part of made up story. We are hearing only one angle and that is hers. That does not make any of her accusations fact. She says there are other girls. Who are they? No one else came forward publicly. And the organization is not God and they were there when the alleged incidents occurred so they can't possible know for sure. In most cases they have a guy who was found guilty in court. In this case they have nothing. Like I said, that doesn't make him innocent but it sure as hell doesn't prove guilt.

And in terms of him hiding or omiting his name from his website--how would you react if you were accused of such crimes? Wouldn't you want to lay low and make yourself appear as innocent as possible and as far away from children as can be? That's not admission of guilt.

amother

Seafoam ↓

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 1:21 pm

My husband was in yeshiva with the molester and is not surprised to hear he did this.
Obviously he didn't know.
He wants to know why he's called a rabbi!

The rabbis she went to are very prestigious rabbis. Rabbis are human and I know I will get screamed at for this, but people make mistakes! It doesn't mean these rabbis need to resign or that their horrible people.

They did NOT sweep it under the table, they thought they can help him thru therapy and mentorship.

The issue of molesters having no remorse is a new phenomenon. Now don't yell, but there is an inyan of teshuva. Even G-d forgives the worst people. Perhaps they wanted to give him a chance. I don't know what they were thinking because they didn't come out with a statement, just trying to think what they could've been thinking.

I once heard a prison chaplain speak and he said 99% of people (not specific to child molesters, just criminals in general ) can be rehabilitated. The problem is people will never trust them so they have almost no chance in society.

So yes, I do 100% believe sima. Her parents lost alot by firing him and saying the truth. Kudos to them!
But I still believe the rabbis she went to are good people and great rabbis.

amother

↑ Powderblue ↓

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 2:15 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

We really need to ban amother in this type of topic (agunahs, someone speaking out against molestation) because without fail we have an amother, always claiming no connection to the case, blaming and trying to discredit the victim.

At least use your screen name.

what difference would it make if I did have a connection to the case? My points would still be valid.

amother

Wine ↓

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 3:21 pm

amother

↑ Purple ↓

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 3:29 pm

amother wrote:

Really? Are you from LA? I am and I'm still pretty shocked. Then again I didn't even know that Rabbi Goldenberg was part of the Bais Din. I'm the most shocked about him and Rabbi Bess, they don't seem the type to sweep things under the rug.

No, I am not from LA, but I know the system of the way us yidden are handling abuse. Its very complicated. No matter how open minded these Rabbis are, there is an anormous pressure and fear of exposing molesters that have a very prestigious status in a community. Rabbis can not handle it on their own. As much as we would like to believe that our Rabbis and community will stand up for what it is right, the reality is that it is not that way.

granolamom ↓

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 3:29 pm

amother wrote:

The rabbis she went to are very prestigious rabbis. Rabbis are human and I know I will get screamed at for this, but people make mistakes! It doesn't mean these rabbis need to resign or that their horrible people.

They did NOT sweep it under the table, they thought they can help him thru therapy and mentorship.

So yes, I do 100% believe sima. Her parents lost alot by firing him and saying the truth. Kudos to them!
But I still believe the rabbis she went to are good people and great rabbis.

I totally understand why sima and her parents did not want to go to the police. they instead, went to daas torah, ppl they trusted to guide them. and the rabbis SHOULD HAVE TOLD THEM TO GO TO THE POLICE. what is this shtus with internal investigation? or sending him to therapy? child molestation is a crime, plain and pashut. when a child reports this, you call the police. if parents are too traumatized to realize that (understandably) they must be encouraged to do so.
these rabbi's (ab)used the victim's vulnerability to protect their own community's reputations as well as the alleged abuser.
telling sima and her parents that they will send him to therapy and mentorship is getting the family to shut up and leave it alone. to me that is the same thing as sweeping it under the rug. especially if he was allowed to move to a new community without anyone advising the new community's leaders. did they continue the 'mentorship' even after his move? I doubt it.

they should have supported sima and advised her to bring this to the police. THAT was their mistake, putting the victims needs second. no, that doesnt mean they are horrible people or need to resign. It does mean that they need to take responsibility for their mistake. It does not appear that they have done so.

↑ granolamom ↓

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 3:34 pm

amother wrote:

Hugs for Sima and I admire her Strenth to come forward with her story.

As a woman who was melestred as a child I had some veiws on this issue like many ppl commented here. These guys r bad and we need to publicize this and destroy their life..... But now as a wife of a relations addict I understand things a bit better. It's a desease, they r not bad ppl but sick ppl. YES we need to protect out children!
Another point is : some girls that came out with their story In my community R good and dirty. They claim melestered/rape, but the truth is : they asked for it...... It doesn't give the adult a freeway bec they should have know that u don't start up with a minor but... These girls coming fwr r not always so truthful .

Ps. No healing comes about from publisizing a story besides for hate. If u want to heal, u work throught it, if u want revenge, u poblisize it. That is my experience!

wow, I'm really sorry about your experiences. But I must ask, do you really think its ok to blame the victim? no matter how flirty or inappropriate a girl is, she deserves not to be criminally molested by an adult. she may be troubled, she may need help, she may need her parents involved, but no one has the right to touch her

amother

↑ Seafoam

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 3:39 pm

granolamom wrote:

Like I said in the beginning of that post, 10 years ago child molestation was not spoken about or known as much as today. They did what they hoped would help. We don't know if they continued monitoring him, but sima did say that when meir seewald called him up he called the rabbi that took him under his wings, so possibly and probably they still do have a relationship.

But if course all this is speculation...

amother

↑ Purple

Sat, Mar 28 2015, 9:26 pm

Aw, teshuvah. Again, Rabbis and our community would like to believe that molesters did teshuvah and everything will be fine if they send him somewhere else or whatever. I learnt that teshuvah means mode all huemes (admit guilt), charutah (remorse), mekabul al heuseid (take upon yourself to change in the future aka, therapy for life). And, if you cause damage to someone, you need to pay him back. Maybe double. These guidelines tell me if a molester did teshuvah.

As long as a molester won't admit to what he did and truly feel remorseful and truly make every effort to heal himself and pay the victim for therapy and whatever else to be able to heal, he belongs behind bars to keep him away from our children. Either way, I believe they need to go through the system for him to change in any way.

And for the another that even has the thought of Sima making this up crossing her mind, think good and hard why someone from the yiddishe world would get up and speak in public while she has family and friends to think of.

And to the amother that thinks this is about revenge, NO. She doesn't want another child to go through the hell that she did! She has the choice of moving on her life and put this behind her, but she can't truly heal when she knows he is molesting other girls! Can you get that? And SILENCE KILLS. Silence allows for abuse to continue.

↑ Learning ↓

Sat, Mar 28 2015, 10:17 pm

amother wrote:

This post is totally insane. I almost reported it. The girls asked for it? They are dirty? These are frum girls from good families. They were innocent and he groomed them and tricked them. it is not revenge to report the molester it is justice and protecting the community.

LittleDucky ↓

Sat, Mar 28 2015, 10:31 pm

amother wrote:

Great, blame the victim. No matter how someone dresses, acts or what they say- it is still wrong, immoral, illegal and halachically problematic for an adult to rape or molest a child! There did I account for all the different criteria she was told to convince her to not go to the police? Are you saying you deserved it or asked for it? I didn't think so.
And who says these girls are "dirty"? Maybe they are seen as such AFTER being abused and all the emotional reprecussions they faced? Or is it a way to discredit them post facto?

amother

Vermilion ↓

Sat, Mar 28 2015, 11:02 pm

Sadly, abusers often pick the victims least likely to be believed, for whatever reason.

Children never ask for it, and never deserve it, despite what they may do inappropriately. Their judgement is skewed, they're not asking for it even when they're asking for it .

I was horrified once to hear that halachically a girl over bas mitzvah is not a child in this regard... meaning she can be held responsible for seducing an adult man... and it's not that big of an aveirah for the man because he is technically permitted to take another wife and only because of the cherem etc etc.

Anyone please tell me this is not true, halachically??? I know what the law says. Please tell me the Torah protects young girls??

↑ imasoftov ↓

Sun, Mar 29 2015, 1:15 am

Learning wrote:

I would like to add that even non-frum and non-innocent girls from troubled families also deserve protection.

ora_43 ↓

Sun, Mar 29 2015, 2:19 am

amother wrote:

I was horrified once to hear that halachically a girl over bas mitzvah is not a child in this regard... meaning she can be held responsible for seducing an adult man... and it's not that big of an aveirah for the man because he is technically permitted to take another wife and only because of the cherem etc etc.

Anyone please tell me this is not true, halachically??? I know what the law says. Please tell me the Torah protects young girls??

Bar/bat mitzvah is the minimum age for becoming an adult, but not the maximum. In a society where a 12/13-year-old is an adult for every purpose - including the ability to support themselves, legal independence, ability to be a full member of adult society, etc - then a 12/13-year-old is also an adult in terms of s-xual relationships. (which doesn't mean that they'd be guilty of "seducing" an older person, only that they'd be an equal partner, and could marry someone much older. seduction in the biblical sense is only something a man can do to a young woman, IIRC)

But today's society, in the western world at least, isn't like that. So a 12/13-year-old is not a full adult under halacha, and that includes in terms of s-xual relationships. Halacha in this case is affected by the "facts on the ground" in terms of what teens can and can't legally do. Parents have a halachic obligation to support their teenage children financially. And adults have a halachic obligation not to abuse them.

In any case, seduction is prohibited even between adults. A man once - 1,000 years ago - could have multiple wives, but it was never allowed for a man to seduce a woman without committing to her.

And causing emotional pain is prohibited between any two people, including adults.

I think that if anyone says it's "not that big an aveira," they're showing serious ignorance. It's ridiculous to say it's "not so big" to deliberately cause another person severe pain. Read Tanach to see what it says about people being makpid on technicalities while hurting others.

↑ imasoftov ↓

Sun, Mar 29 2015, 2:49 am

I'd also like to see what would happen if a teacher would tell young adults (above the age of consent but not married) that having relations with their peers (or whatever other sort of s-xual act adult men get a pass for) was "not that big an aveira". But the teacher does it himself, and suddenly it's no big deal.

And to the claim that it's a disease, so the men are not evil, let a man who cannot keep it in his pants but is not evil
1) either divorce his wife or get her permission
2) find single, willing s-xual partners, who he is not in a position of authority over. If he can't find any, pay s-x workers.

Last edited by imasoftov on Sun, Mar 29 2015, 7:14 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ ora_43 ↓

Sun, Mar 29 2015, 2:55 am

amother wrote:

... and it's not that big of an aveirah for the man because he is technically permitted to take another wife and only because of the cherem etc etc.

The more I think of this, the more outrageous it is.

Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned the real halacha. Because anyone who's saying this is already too invested in halacha as a series of "do"s and "do not"s that are there to abide when strictly necessary, and is not at all invested in belief in Hashem, who sees the human heart, who raises the weak and hears the cry of the oppressed.

As if any of us is capable of fooling G-d. As if we can do evil and then claim it was technically OK, and that's going to trick an eternal, all-knowing being, when it wouldn't even fool a reasonably intelligent child. That's not going to work even if we can point to chapter and verse in the Rambam.

amother

Salmon

Sun, Mar 29 2015, 3:16 am

Don't blame the victim!
In high school and seminary I saw girls flirting with the rebbeim. They clearly didn't understand what they were doing (possibly due to a sheltered upbringing). This was more common with an outgoing personality.
I could see where a man could be tempted, BUT THE GIRL IS NOT ASKING FOR ANYTHING. She's just being her fun friendly self. If a man is planning to step into such an environment, he must set up safeguards first.