Lakewood - anyone still school-less?

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 11:37 am

Chayalle wrote:

I know Bnos Rivka is full to capacity. I don't know about Ateres Tzipora.

I think the problem is also, there's a need for a school more to the left of these schools. There is no such school in Lakewood. (There's a school outside of Lakewood, but many people are not interested in transporting their young children so far, and I don't blame them...) So people try to get their kids into schools like BR or AT when they are really more to the left of that Hashkafa....which causes all of the issues mentioned in this thread already...parents unhappy with the school, school unhappy with the parents and getting backlash, kid stuck in the middle.

Is it a circular problem? Amother upthread said that the rabbonim don't want a more "modern" school. Parents want a better option for their kids, but need to push into local schools.

I understand wanting a community of like minded people to a certain extent. I grew up a MO minority in a yeshivish and chassidish majority. It was very important to me to move to a place where my kids weren't a minority. But I don't mind diversity.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 11:39 am

the world's best mom wrote:

I read a few pages of this thread, and wanted to try to answer this question.

If I move to a new community with 10 other families who are all like me, and I want to help the community grow, but only with people who are like me, that's a problem.

If we are welcoming to all frum people, that would be great. But if we say the men all need beards at least 5 inches long, that's ridiculous. There is no Halacha about having a beard at all, though there is a source in Kabala about having one. Nobody ever made a rule about how long a beard has to be.

So, if my new community were to reject all families whose men have no beards or shorter beards than ours, that is called Sinas Chinam. (Besides, my husband doesn't have a long beard, but that's besides the point.) I cannot reject another Jew because he is different from me. Hashem loves all Jews, and if I am judging my fellow Jew more harshly than I should be, Hashem will judge me more harshly.

As for this gem.

Actually if your 10 families set up a school that is designed to promote a family lifestyle that is along the line's of Kabbolah, then I would expect the parent's to understand that is what is being taught in the schools.
That is the accepted custom's ot the place ect..

If you do not wish to adhere to that then you are better off not sending your child to that school, your child is better off not being in that schools. And the school is doing you a be chesed by not allowing you to put your child in a terrible situation.

On the other hand if you do insist on sending yiur child their.

Well then there is a good chance that your child will grow into a very confused teen.

OIne who for 12-13 years' was told one thing for half a day and another for another half.

A teen that has half her/his role model's attempt to portray one thing as proper behaviour and the other half something entirely different.

And there is a liklihood that this confused teen will end up rejecting everything from both sides.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 11:43 am

saw50st8 wrote:

If you did not want the lifestyle for your children that the majority of the community followed and therefore moved out to a different place that is more in line with your hashkofa, then Kol hakovod.
You seem to have acted in a responsible fashion and putting your family and children first.

And your children will likely thank you when they grow up for allowing them to grow up in a place where they did not stick out and did not receive contradictory messages in school and at home.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 11:54 am

Barbara wrote:

How is the color of a child's shoes, color of a man's shirt, or the fabric of a man's pants, reflective of a level of tziniut? Ditto for cut of a sheitel (within reason) and height of a woman's heels.

If you were talking about schools not wanting to accept a family where Mama showed up at the interview wearing a skirt that fell 4 inches below her buttocks and a shirt that relied heavily upon double sided tape to do its job of covering the girls, and Dad showed up in jeans that didn't do a good job of covering his boxers and a NORML tee shirt, well, maybe you've got a point. But that's not what's happening.

Barbara , it's better to be quiet and let everyone think you are a fool, then open your mouth and remove all doubt
Why the need to comment in things you have no knowledge of

↑ Barbara ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 11:55 am

amother wrote:

Can we assume, in that case, that you're a supporter of the people who oppose building eruvs, because they don't want Orthodox Jews to move into their neighborhoods.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 12:15 pm

Nasty amother is showing everyone how 50 percent of lakewood thinks. We are more Tznius we are frummer smarter and better and everyone else is stupid and nasty amother is the type of person who will call up a school and say don't accept my neighbors child because of x y and z.

The problem is that Lakewood wants the people they deem less frum than hem out of Lakewood. They don't want new schools to open up.

And nasty amother Lakewood right now has a huge problem with off the derech children and 90 percent of the off the derech children are from the more yeshivish homes and the old time Lakewood so who is mixing up their kids.

It's interesting to see that the more openings people and less Tznius people in Lakewood are producing better frum kids.

The closed minded people in Lakewood are the boys smoking on shabbos and doing way worse on shabbos.

This is lakewoods biggest problem right now.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 12:19 pm

amother wrote:

Barbara , it's better to be quiet and let everyone think you are a fool, then open your mouth and remove all doubt
Why the need to comment in things you have no knowledge of

People know me. I might come close to being OOT chareidi, yeshivish for sure if you want to label me. Personally, I'm very careful about what I say about Lakewood, as I would be about any city or community mitzad hilchos lashon hara, and because I appreciate so much of what Lakewood's about, even if I don't think I could live there.

But for the life of me, I read Barbara's post twice and I don't get your response. Not the tone of the response, the substance. OK, we're coming from different worlds, us and Barbara, and quite possibly Barbara and me, and you, as my husband wears striped and colored shirts to work and - gasp - doesn't always have time to change for shul. (Though on his days off he is thrilled and relieved to be able to wear white; he's a bit more to the right than I.) So maybe one can argue Barbara doesn't get all the nuances. But I thought she had a logical point. Not to mention that that second paragraph was great entertaining. (And reflective of how the LW dresses? Hehe. JK.) Please folks, tell me what I'm missing.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 12:20 pm

Barbara wrote:

Can we assume, in that case, that you're a supporter of the people who oppose building eruvs, because they don't want Orthodox Jews to move into their neighborhoods.

First I just want to clarify I am not the amother who attacked you.

Secondly in response to the eiruv issue I happen to be conflicted about it.

In some case's I truly do see both sides for ex. the current issue in Monroe.

I sypmathize with the Chassidim who really need more place for their families to live. On the other hand I understand people saying "this is not an issue of anti-semitisim we simply moved to arural community for a rural lifestyle and living space we do not want that to change.".

My DH was at a shiur from a big RW Rav on Hilchos Shabbos and the the issue of the shabbos siren's came up. The Rov said "I don't understand the people doing this. Don't they understand that we Jews are in Golus, we b"h live in a medinah shel chesed we were never welcomed and treated so well. However how would you like it if all of a sudden once a week a large siren was blasted off in the middle of the neighborhood for several seconds to alert other's that their day of rest was coming. What about the little children who don't understand it and get frightened, the old people who get frightened ect..Why can't we understand our neighbor's and not impose our lifestyle on them?".

But let me be clear that the difference between the eiruv, siren's and even housing vs. school's is pretty clear.

No one is asking other's to change their lifestyle, home's or propety to put up the string that make's up the eiruv.

They are simply being asked to be allowed to live and be accomodated.

However when someone with a very different Hashkofa sends their child to a school that was built by other's is funded by other's, is run by other's, and the majority of the student body has a hashkofah different then thiers thier are ina sense demanding everyone else change to fit them.

They are not just asking to be allowed in they are asking other's to change their live's to fit their's.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 12:21 pm

amother wrote:

You get a hug for this. Because yes, you have a lot of good points here, but please know that there are many people in Lakewood who might have a narrow view of the world but are NOT narrow minded, and ARE big-hearted, understanding, and not condescending.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 12:23 pm

amother wrote:

First I just want to clarify I am not the amother who attacked you.

Thanks for clarifying this so quickly. I'm not surprised to hear that.
But can I ask you a personal question? Are you using the apostrophes or is it some evil spellcheck? I wonder if you're the same poster as in some other interesting discussion and I felt that it really didn't serve you well. I would have pm'd you if I could have.

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 12:29 pm

amother wrote:

If Rabbonim are actively trying to stop the introduction of new schools to accommodate less Yeshivish families, then the Rabbonim are actively trying to prevent people from being allowed to live.

People oppose eruvim because they recognize that if there is an eruv, orthodox Jews will move into the neighborhood and change it. For better or worse, but it generally will change.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 12:30 pm

amother wrote:

Again I can't speak for OTD children however do you have anything to back yourself up?

See my DH work's with these children and see's the opposit. In fact the more open minded the community I.e Brooklyn, Five Town's the bigger the problem. And in fact my DH was told by an MO person in avery LW-MO community that the vast majority of children who do not go to EY to learn end up non shomer shabbos lo aleinu. ( of course now I wil get bashed since it's only Lakewood and Satmar that is allowed to be trashed and spoken ill of on this site)

( I can't speak for Chassidishe communities I know no firs thand info about this in those places).

And again why is it nasty to want your community to stay the way you wanted it when you moved there and worked so hard to set it up?

It's just Mo that are allowed to have shul's to fit them?

It's just MO that are allowed to have school's that teach their hashkofah?

It's just MO families that are allowed to have places where thier children are brought up to think that thier parent's are doing the right thing?

It's just MO that are allowed to choose thier role models?

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 12:34 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

Actually the Rabbonim are saying that this is a Yeshivish community and we do not want that to change, hence this is really not the place for you.

Because once there are more left wing school's the community will change.

For better or for worse, but it generally will change.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 12:39 pm

amother wrote:

Should we have dueling OTD causes now? Every community has its tzaros, there's no question.
I think that since your husband works in this capacity it might not be professional for you to comment based on his experience. He may have had solid reasons for sharing this with you, and I can easily be dlkz and think of some. But your sharing what is "first hand info" is not a good idea.

Please amother, know I understand how you want to defend Lakewood. You know the concept of "ureh b'tuv Yerushalayim" re being careful in discussing E"Y? (And as Rabbi Reisman mentioned in his hesped for the three boys, Hy'd, IIRC, we in chu"l especially shouldn't be over-involved if involved at all.) To a degree I feel that way about Lakewood. Like I said, hilchos lashon hara have a lot to say about bashing any community but there is something about Lakewood beyond that. I truly feel that way and as I started this paragraph I "get" your knee-jerk reaction. But there are problems. No doubt about it.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 12:46 pm

Call up rabbi abadi in Lakewood who deals with otd kids and ask him what kind of homes these boys and girls come from? It's so sad for me to see this as I know the parents and ten years ago they thought they were the hottest people around with yichus, got into the right schools right away family has money to support their dh in kollel and now look at their kids. These kids come from the frum homes in Lakewood. My dh helps rabbi abadi out sometimes so yes I know the kids. The parents totally can't relate to their kids.

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 12:48 pm

amother wrote:

What's sad is - and I'm not talking about Lakewood but OTD kids in general - sometimes the parents do get it, but too late. Or they make one misstep and the kid is too sad and damaged to give them another chance. It's really painful and maybe next time we say birkas haTorah, we really should have in mind that kol tzetzai Amcha beis Yisrael experience the sweetness of Torah and its faithful adherents.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 12:52 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Your probably right but it's kinda hurtful to me to see my community bashed with seeming impunity in a public manner especially in cases like this where they have bent over backwards to try and do everything they could to accomodate people.

Can someone name a single other community in the US where school's were not allowed to open unless each child had a place.

And don't say only in Lakewood kid's wind up without place's 'cuase if you do then it simply means you know nothing about what goes on in Monsey or Brooklyn at a minimum.

Can you you name another community with a Vaad of Baleh batim who are specifically tasked with ensuring that each child has a place?

Can you name another community where Askonim personally offer to raise the money needed to cover expenses for new school's opening up for the first few years.

Or how about one where the RY pay's out of pocket for tutoring for girl's and boy's to bring them up to speed so school's will acceptet them.,

Yeah, I should'nt say this but a close relative was in a meeting with on eof the RY of BMG and a woman's name came up. The RY had a confused look on his face and then said "Oh, I know who she is. Last year we were down to a few girl's who had no place in school. This school said we would take her, however she is to behind scholastically to fit in (it was HS) well the school had a point but the parent's would not pay for tutor's on top of tuition and the school did not want to take in agirl they knew would end up having probblem's. So I said I would pay for her to have tutor's on the side for the first year to bring her up to speed, that's the woman who call's me every month for a check so I know who she is, but I 'm actually acouple of month's behind, (which BTW make's sense considering this RY had just a chasunah) so I have to send her a check with the back pay".

And this RY get's bashed for kid's not having place's.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 12:56 pm

I"m going to get lots of hate for this.

but you have literally thousands of people who move to Lakewood and expect the infrastructure to magically fit them.
There are lots of complaints:
There aren't enough mikvas
There aren't enough schools
The schools aren't my type
etc.
Why don't people get up and do something.
Its hard - but why expect others to do it.
(Maybe I"m talking to myself as well).

No one is thanking those who built the original infrastructure. Who created a community that is available to move to. Someone built the many mikvas, and started the schools. And it fit the community at the time. And then you have a solid community and people move her en-mass and then complain it doesn't fit them.

I really don't care about the types - my DH works, he wears colored shirts. I'm very happy here. The infrastructure needs a major overhall. Problem is that people who do step up to the plate and create new infrastructure get a lot of hate, which I think discourages others.

and I agree with Chayalle we need more schools to the left. Many people either don't want to open them or attend them.

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 12:57 pm

amother wrote:

That's what the people who try to block eruvim think also.

I do think its unfortunate to create a situation where people are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Less yeshivish people ARE moving in, and right now the school situation puts them in a position to lie about their observance or force their way in to a school that isn't hashkafically right for them. Which creates a terrible cycle.

Lakewood has changed pretty drastically in the last 20 years. So has my neighborhood that I grew up in. It would be better for the Rabbonim to deal with the change IMO.