Lakewood - anyone still school-less?

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 9:32 am

amother wrote:

Also every school in town wants to be as yeshivish as the next and they are all competing to be considered the most yeshivish. Bits pathetic but when one school makes a Tznius rule the next year the other school makes an even stricter Tznius rule.

Even within the yeshivish schools there are totally different levels of tzinius rules - some have almost no jewelry, black or blue shoes, tights from primary. I thought my daughters school was pretty reasonable. cover knees, color bone, elbows, socks to meet the skirt, appropriate jewelry, no flashy shoes. I'm not sure what is crazy there.
I was surprised they said no roller blading or biking above a certain age in public, but truth is my rav said the same so it doesn't really affect me.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 9:56 am

saw50st8 wrote:

I have a question about Lakewood schools: if there are so many people who need to push into a school because they don't fully agree with the stricter yeshivish hashkafa, why don't they open a school that caters to "lighter" Yeshivish? Presumably, many working parents would really be in this category so aside from start up funding, it should be easier to keep the school in service.

I think Bnos Rivka and Ateres Tzipora both opened to cater to that crowd....even they are selective to an extent. And to the extent that they are not, the crowd that is more to the right there is leaving.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 10:21 am

amother wrote:

Six years ago Chayala Hertzka wanted to open up a more with it Bklyn type of school and still yeshivish and the rosh hayeshivos in this town stopped it. It's not so simple. By he rosh hayeshivos are still trying to keep this town as right wing as possible. They are losing because the town grew too fast and within the next year or two there will be more without schools opening up but at one point it wasn't allowed.

So in other words the majority of the current Orthodox Jewish population is right wing yeshivish.
However there are many individuals moving here who are not of that "persuasion" and they wish to open up an infrastructure that would allow for them. However those in a leadership position of the current population are trying to keep the community the way it was envisioned by the majority of people who currently preside here.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 10:27 am

amother wrote:

How can a vaad or a city stop someone from opening up a School? What right do they have? What power do they have?

They obviously need more classrooms. They aren't teaching that it's ok to be michallel shabbos or eat trief.
Do they not understand that not every kid fits into every school? That kids aren't neat pegs to fit into boxes?

Ok, so glad I don't live in Lakewood or my kid wouldn't get into school cuz I dared to question authority.

It's actually pretty simple what type of power they have.

The Rabbonim will not give the school Rabbinical backing.

The Askonim will not give it financial backing and then good luck opening it.

As for your opinion's of what should be taught.

Fine that's great but what happened to "live and let live" why are people not allowed to try and preserve their community and their lifestyle the way they feel it should be?

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 10:29 am

Ten years ago there was no such thing as a sit down restaurant in Lakewood. A pizza store couldn't have more than six chairs or they would lose their Lakewood hashgacha. The rosh hayeshivos decided that chairs in a pizza store will end up having gummy kids hanging out there at night and they didn't allow it. It worked for a long time until one pizza store didn't care and opened up with a lot of seating room and people started going there with their kids to eat and fun pizza plus on 4th street the first pizza store in lkwd saw he is losing his business so he decided to follow suit and expand his store and finally have a normal store and guess what they didn't listen to the rosh hayeshivos and they are still in Business today.

The town Is growing and the rosh hayeshivos are getting less and less influential in town. Five years ago they weren't ready for such a school today if someone were to try I'm sure there won't be as much opposition.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 10:37 am

glutenless wrote:

The sad thing is that those are considered to be "tznius" rules, instead of "our personal mishegas" rules.
The sadder thing is that people are measured by their level of tznius, not by their level of frumkeit. Of course tznius is the most obvious and therefor easiest thing to measure, but it doesn't necessarily say anything about how frum somebody really is.

In the yeshivish world especially Yeshivish Litvish Lakewood it's generally acceppted that Tznius is a pretty major thing, considering the Vilna Gaon stated that Tznius for a women is the same as Torah for a man.

I am also pretty perplexed as to how level of tznius is irreflective of level of frumkeit. I thought that frumkeit was measured with dedication to Torah and Mitzvos.
It would seem to me that a lack of dedication to tznius is automatically a step down in frumkeit.

( I am not talking about those women who feel that certain things are tznius while in Lakewood it is not thought of as such. I think those are basic Hashkofic differences. I am merely pointing out your indication that tznius has nothing to do with frum).

↑ saw50st8 ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 10:39 am

Chayalle wrote:

My nieces went there! (first to Bnos Rivka and then to Ateres Tzipora when they split) My sister was happy with their education and they adjusted well to their new school when they moved out of Lakewood.

Are they full to capacity? Is it hard to get in there?

Is the problem in Lakewood that everyone wants to be in the "best" (AKA most "yeshivish") school even if they are not that yeshivish?

↑ Barbara ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 10:50 am

amother wrote:

How is the color of a child's shoes, color of a man's shirt, or the fabric of a man's pants, reflective of a level of tziniut? Ditto for cut of a sheitel (within reason) and height of a woman's heels.

If you were talking about schools not wanting to accept a family where Mama showed up at the interview wearing a skirt that fell 4 inches below her buttocks and a shirt that relied heavily upon double sided tape to do its job of covering the girls, and Dad showed up in jeans that didn't do a good job of covering his boxers and a NORML tee shirt, well, maybe you've got a point. But that's not what's happening.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 10:57 am

amother wrote:

So, they expect everyone to leave if they don't have a school for their kids? If they don't allow people a bit to the left in the school, I guess they won't help if a family wants to move to the right. My family started in one place growing up but if you saw us now, you would never know. Because we wanted to and made the switch. Because a school "took a chance" with us. If you don't want parents who work, who will pay tuition? Sponsor the new building? Be your kids doctor? Be an attorney who understands frumkeit (like with making halachic wills legally binding)? Have the kosher grocery store, pizza shop or clothing store?
In my city we have lots of schools and we realize that there are many ways to serve HKBH while being shomer Torah and mitzvos. Why can't they?

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 11:00 am

Barbara wrote:

Considering the fact that you don't live in Lakewood I am not sure how you would know for certain what is happening in Lakewood.

However last I checked there are many professions that have uniform's, in fact many companies actually require thier employees to wear the company shirt ect..

So in many, if not all, case's a person's clothing reflect's the community and lifestyle they wish to be identified with.

A man who walk's around in black pant's and a white shirt is basically showing that even if he is working he wishes to identify with the "yeshivish community.

On the ther hand a man who shows up to an interview clad in Levi's with a T-shirt is saying pretty clearly that he chooses not to identify with the Yeshivish community.

I think they are both fine.;

People have free will and make choices about who they wish to identify with and the lifestyle they wish for their families.

However a school that was opened for Yeshivish families to give over their chinuch and is run by "yeshivish people", and is trying to attract yeshivish people will probably not want the child from a family that does not want that lifestyle.

Nor BTW do I undesstand why such a family would want to send thier child thier.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 11:05 am

amother wrote:

Like I said.

There are thousand 's of working men in Lakewood who have no problem getting their children into school.

That's a simple fact.

And the parent's who can prove they are not "against" the lifestyle being promoted by most of the school's in Lakewood, and especially those who chose to move to Lakewood becuase they generally see themselves as "growing". In most cases do not have issues and if they do the Vaad end's up taking care of them and ensuring thier child is in a good school.

However I think this thread alone would indicate that there are many who move to Lakewood who are activley opposed to the value system being promoted by the school's.

↑ Chayalle ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 11:09 am

amother wrote:

If the tznius level is forced rather than internalized, it's not that reflective of the person's frumkeit level.

I know people who dress one way in Lakewood....and differently elsewhere.

Sort of OT but my pet peeve....Black does not mean tznius!

I went to a Bar Mitzva Kiddush some time back wearing a white skirt and grey knit sweater. Hardly bold colors, even.....but I felt like I had horns. I was telling DH's ultra-yeshivish aunt about this, and she agreed with me that there was nothing untznius about it, but she still "feels more comfortable in black".

↑ Chayalle ↓

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 11:17 am

saw50st8 wrote:

I know Bnos Rivka is full to capacity. I don't know about Ateres Tzipora.

I think the problem is also, there's a need for a school more to the left of these schools. There is no such school in Lakewood. (There's a school outside of Lakewood, but many people are not interested in transporting their young children so far, and I don't blame them...) So people try to get their kids into schools like BR or AT when they are really more to the left of that Hashkafa....which causes all of the issues mentioned in this thread already...parents unhappy with the school, school unhappy with the parents and getting backlash, kid stuck in the middle.

the world's best mom

Thu, Aug 21 2014, 11:25 am

amother wrote:

Fine that's great but what happened to "live and let live" why are people not allowed to try and preserve their community and their lifestyle the way they feel it should be?

I read a few pages of this thread, and wanted to try to answer this question.

If I move to a new community with 10 other families who are all like me, and I want to help the community grow, but only with people who are like me, that's a problem.

If we are welcoming to all frum people, that would be great. But if we say the men all need beards at least 5 inches long, that's ridiculous. There is no Halacha about having a beard at all, though there is a source in Kabala about having one. Nobody ever made a rule about how long a beard has to be.

So, if my new community were to reject all families whose men have no beards or shorter beards than ours, that is called Sinas Chinam. (Besides, my husband doesn't have a long beard, but that's besides the point.) I cannot reject another Jew because he is different from me. Hashem loves all Jews, and if I am judging my fellow Jew more harshly than I should be, Hashem will judge me more harshly.

My sister was once redt a shidduch and the guy wore colored shirts. She asked her Rav if that should be a concern, and he answered, "Oh yes! You'll have to be very careful with the bleach then!" LOL

Honestly, why would you say a child cannot come to my school because his father wears blue shirts? Where is there a Halacha that men can't wear blue shirts?

I understand you don't want anyone there who will challenge the way you raise your children. If you want your kids to grow up thinking it is Halacha to wear white shirts and have beards down to your waists, great. You still can't be disgusting to other people who happen to disagree with your shtuyot.

Then there's the argument about whether children are better off being raised in a community where everyone is the same. I know that is seen as ideal by many people in Lakewood and Williamsburg and Skver and Monroe. They think if their kids never see a guy in a colored shirt, they will never have the terrible taiva to wear one. But the problem is, kids grow up. They will go out in the world at some point. As teenagers, kids begin to expand their horizons and meet new people. You can't keep them locked up in Lakewood for life. They will suddenly realize that there are multitudes of frum Jews who do things differently than we do.

Then they will come to either of 2 conclusions:

1- These people are not really frum because they are not like me, so I will treat them like dirt, or

2- These people are just as frum as I am, so why am I following all the nonsense I was taught all my life? That wasn't all Halacha after all!

And then comes the problem. These kids don't know what is Halacha and what is shtus. So they just do away with the parts that seem not so important, even though some of it may very well be Halacha. Either way, it's a problem.

If you raise a child in a community where there are many types of people, that's a great setting for teaching them things like, "We do this because it's our Minhag, even though your friend doesn't have the same Minhag as us." ect.