Million Man Atzeres

↑ m in Israel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:29 am

anon for this wrote:

I'm confused. Would someone who's been drafted into the Israeli army be prohibited from emigrating? If not, what does the sign mean?

Of course. Once you are drafted you cannot leave the country. That is why they have passport control on the way OUT of Israel (in the U.S. for example you only have passport control on the way in) -- to try to catch those who may be leaving the country in order to avoid the draft. Attempting to leave the country was actually one of the only ways to be caught until now.

↑ Teamster ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:34 am

just got back home.

It was really beautiful.

there were thousands and thousands of people - all types, even some chayalim/chayalot. nobody heckled them. my dh said there were chilonim holding signs that said "chilonim ba'ad lomdei hatorah"

tehillim was said, and some selichos, kabbalas ol malchus shamayim. the men danced a little.

at the end, they thanked the police and everyone who helped pull off the event.

it seemed to be very well organized, and the program ran on time. I'm sure it will take a bit until things are fully cleared up, but the program was over at 6 like they said it would be.

here's to increased shalom, and gishmei bracha, in EY.

Last edited by Teamster on Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:38 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ m in Israel

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 8:37 am

ROFL wrote:

I am in the us , on the videos streaming you see a lot of people milling around and lots of yelling. Did not see or hear tehlim or davening. And maybe those who don't believe in medinat eretz yisrael should leave , like blue rose posted , if that was a real sign at the rally, then the man holding it should make his way to the airport and get out. This was not a rally for davening for achdut it was an anti govt rally.

Wow. You weren't there, but based on the stream you saw that only showed some people milling about you can determine that this was "not a rally for davening". Well, the stream I followed you heard the davening and tehilim loud and clear. My husband and 2 older sons are there -- they were not super close to the center (they were around the area of the tachana mercazit), and they said that the Shema Yisroel and Hashem Hu Haelokim literally shook the ground.

I understand people who have different views on the draft issue, but I find this post very offensive. Maybe talk to some people who were actually there before you make such a definitive statement as to what this rally was or wasn't. (And it is strange to call it an anti-govt rally, considering it was arranged by 3 political parties who have seats in the Knesset. You can say it was a rally against the draft law, but to say it was anti-govt is just off factually. There have been anti-govt rallies in Israel, organized by groups like the Eidah Chareidis, who actually don't accept the right of the Israeli government. This was not that.)

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:30 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I'm very glad I don't live in your bubble.
I know MANY MANY MANY young frum men who went through the army and came out just as frum still wearing their Kira and some even stronger than when they went in.

And as a few have said here, your gedolim Yisrael are not everyone's gedolim Yisrael. Mine are not telling me to go.

and I will say it again.. An army that does not stop a female soldier from preventing a DATI LEUMI battalion from davening is not an army any frum young man should be in. Just because you know many young men who went in the way they came does not mean that the army is a good enviroment for a Chareidi young man. Part of a democracy is the freedom of religion.. freedom of religion means that you have the right to worship/practice as you choose. When the army has MANY incidents to the contrary . I.e. having women examine men when they for sure have men who can do it.. and then to have the examiners call them g-y for wanting this.. I can go on an on.

Anybody who says that this was not a prayer rally needs to have their head examined. The loud speaker had someone pouring out his neshama while all the men were davening with all their hearts..

When will there be tolerance for Chareidim???? Why is it that the MO/DL are more tolerant of alternative lifestyles but they are not tolerant of men/boys who chose to devote their lives to Torah???? During ancient wars there were ALWAYS those who stayed back and learned and the other half learned. and those armies had ONLY those who are yirai shamayim not anybody who were secular etc etc.. when the army of Israel is run like the ancient ones of Yehoshua etc.. then you will have the Chareidim joinging in droves.. they had their own army in the Old Yishuv that was on that format so they have NO objection to defending Israel's borders.. Maybe the DL should have taken advantage of being on the inside of the army to transform it into a truly Jewish army instead of letting anti torah people be in control.

↑ amother ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:33 am

ROFL wrote:

What live stream did you see??? I saw a huge crowd of men davening with kavana!! I heard the loud speaker of someone beseeching Hash-m to help ..

I am Chareidi and I believe in Medinat Yisrael but they have to ACT LIKE A JEWISH STATE..

↑ DrMom

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:39 am

amother wrote:

When will there be tolerance for Chareidim???? Why is it that the MO/DL are more tolerant of alternative lifestyles but they are not tolerant of men/boys who chose to devote their lives to Torah???? During ancient wars there were ALWAYS those who stayed back and learned and the other half learned. and those armies had ONLY those who are yirai shamayim not anybody who were secular etc etc.. when the army of Israel is run like the ancient ones of Yehoshua etc.. then you will have the Chareidim joinging in droves.. they had their own army in the Old Yishuv that was on that format so they have NO objection to defending Israel's borders.. Maybe the DL should have taken advantage of being on the inside of the army to transform it into a truly Jewish army instead of letting anti torah people be in control.

I am very tolerant of -- and have the utmost respect for -- people who wish to devote their lives to Torah.
After they have completed their army service, of course.
(And they can study Torah while in the army too.)

As for your second point, there are DL officers in the army in far greater proportion than their mere numbers would predict. These people have been a positive influence on the army's operations.

If haredim want to transform the army to fit their needs, they need to join the army under some sort of framework. But the haredi leadership does not put forth any constructive ideas for how this may happen. They simply throw up obstructions and hyperbolic anti-IDF rhetoric.

↑ Marion ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:41 am

anon for this wrote:

I'm confused. Would someone who's been drafted into the Israeli army be prohibited from emigrating? If not, what does the sign mean?

Of course. Once you have a tzav rishon (first draft notice) you can't leave the country without permission until your status is resolved.

Personally, with the number of visas to the U.S. reduced by over 80% in the last year alone I would *LOVE* to see these guys try to get in. One of the criteria, of course, is that they won't become a burden on the public coffer.

↑ BlueRose52 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:45 am

Quote:

...when the army of Israel is run like the ancient ones of Yehoshua etc.. then you will have the Chareidim joinging in droves

So tired of hearing this pathetic excuse over and over. There are two obvious counter-examples which demonstrate how disingenuous this argument is:

1) Even when offered sheirut leumi in place of military service, the chareidi community rejected that proposal too.
2) What about Nachal Chareidi? NC has offered a chareidi friendly environment for over a decade, yet very few chareidim have taken advantage of it, and the overwhelming response from the chareidi community was against it.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:56 am

DrMom wrote:

My shita is not to pay taxes. Why must others force their shita on me? If YOU want to pay taxes, gezunterheit, but I'm not giving up my legally earned cash to pay for services for other people.
Waa! I am persecuted!

Isn't there such a shitta, not paying taxes and not taking help? Maybe Toldos aharon? or Satmar? they also don't have the citizenship.. it is discussed in Holy Woman.

A country is allowed to make its laws, but imho a free modern country, which Israel wants to be (as opposed to a theocracy or a backwards dictatorship) cannot "force" people into the army.

There have been posters on Imamother saying there is no way they want to be anything close to charedi or chardal or any type of not very MO, hence do not make alia (partly?) because of the army. There are also people leaving or sending their bachurim (non charedi) away like say to US or EU yeshivos or uni or relatives. Seen it.

I would be very curious to see, if the army made necessary changes kashrus, shabbos, gender wise, a charedi unit with no female instructor, if the charedim would enlist. I suppose we will never know because on both sides, many people don't really want charedim to be there en masse.

↑ cinnamon ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 9:59 am

BlueRose52 wrote:

Quote:

...when the army of Israel is run like the ancient ones of Yehoshua etc.. then you will have the Chareidim joinging in droves

1) that is really really offensive meila to say that you need the charedim in order to protect the country but to say you don't need them to protect the country they don't have to go into the army, but you want them to leave the yeshiva anyway?

2) Many many chredim did go into the NC and contrary to what they were promised had women commanders, problems on shabbos etc. Like someone wrote somewhere up thread running the army is not like running a yeshiva you cannot cater to each soldier's religious needs.

Tablepoetry ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 10:03 am

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

So you should follow your gedolei yisroel and go go to the army and we'll follow our gedoilei yisroel and not go to the army. Why do your Rabbis have to force something down our throats when it's against our halacha and principles? If you want to go to the army, gezunterheit, go and come back safely, but we're not up to giving up 1 bochur to ch"v go off the derech or to be contaminated there. Why is it so hard for DL to understand our shita?

I don't want to give up my 'bochurim' either. Why do you get to choose?

↑ BlueRose52 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 10:05 am

Ruchel wrote:

I would be very curious to see, if the army made necessary changes kashrus, shabbos, gender wise, a charedi unit with no female instructor, if the charedim would enlist. I suppose we will never know because on both sides, many people don't really want charedim to be there en masse.

See what I wrote above about Nachal Chareidi.