Million Man Atzeres

↑ Tablepoetry ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:09 pm

Sanguine wrote:

People sign Keva. Make a nice salary and great pension at 45. But how many would join to be the plain infantry soldier? Go home every third Shabbat (if they're lucky). Spend years in a tank? Not that many. Who joins the American army? People who can't do anything else. How many dati Jews do you know who sees it as a good opportunity? I would never push my kids to join the army if every other boy was out advancing their personal life (and if they tell me they can hire a better army - let them).
Policemen and firefighters live at home and work set hours. Jobniks may sleep at home and work set hours. But Kravi soldiers are constantly practicing. Are always moving bases based on the needs of the army. (are we being attacked from the North or the South today?) So till what age do you think someone is willing to live like that? And then what? They wasted those years while their peers went to university and got experience in jobs.
We don't have 300,000,000 people like America.

This. The number of men willing to sign up would plummet, once it no longer became a national, idealistic, 'we're all in this together' army, but rather a professional one.
Honestly, not that many Jewish mothers the world over dream of their sons becoming soldiers.
As Sanguine said, it's a tough, tough life and I doubt it would or could be compensated so much that it would attract enough applicant. (There's a limit to how much salary the gov't can offer).

Look at the US. Who goes to the army? OK, there are a few idealistic types with a military tradition in their family. But by far most of the army is comprised of the lower socio-economic level, boys who couldn't find their path elsewhere. And this causes a lot of resentment in certain periods of history (when there's a war, for example, and it's obvious no rich WASPS are getting killed). And it certainly causes distance; the Americans don't feel that every soldier is one of THEIR boys. He's just someone doing his job.
Not ideal or practical for Israel.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:10 pm

I saw. Cinnamon answered. I don't know who is "right". I did hear of problems. I can also see many charedim not wanting to be the first to start, or to make any change. I don't know.

TP I don't think dl and chiloni should be forced either. It may be easier on them, but still it doesn't feel right to me to force.

I think few mothers over the world want their sons in the army, even "calm" places (because you never know, because it's hard, because they move). But the sons may well want.

Last edited by Ruchel on Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ Ruchel

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:14 pm

In France we have a shortage of nurses. Too hard, too ill paid. We do suffer from the shortage, but I don't think the solution would be for all girls (boys?) to be nurse for some years, whether or not they have cut for it at all.

I understand it's a problem if it's only the weakest classes who will go. Though in Israel there is also a sector who will want to go out of idealism. Much more than in most other countries!

slushiemom ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:19 pm

I soooo have no patience for 12 pages of back and forth. Has it been mentioned yet, that this will be the first time in Israeli History, should this law pass, that Torah learning will actually be counted as service to one's country??

No other country in the world would offer such a thing. In other words, until the Tal law, Torah was an "exemption". Nobody counted it as service, but they were exempt the same way someone with disabilities was. Now, 1800 Chareidi men PER YEAR (!) will serve their country by learning Torah. It will be recognized by the State of Israel as service. That's mind blowing!

The chareidi politicians are very good at making their constituents see and hear what they want them to, and believe what they want them to, true or not.

↑ cinnamon ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:23 pm

slushiemom wrote:

What about bochur #1801? Why doesn't he get to learn torah?

Last edited by cinnamon on Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ slushiemom ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:26 pm

cinnamon wrote:

What about bochur #1801? Why doesn't he get to serve his country by learning torah?

What about recruit number 453? Why can't HE be an air force pilot?

also- chareidim will be getting a much shorter service, a much more delayed service, after and before which they can resume all the Torah learning they want, b'zchut the safety of their brothers and sisters and our country.

↑ cinnamon ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:29 pm

slushiemom wrote:

Because this country was built with certain laws (the status que laws) those laws stated that any man learning torah full time does not have to serve in the army.
The charedim were going by the law it's the chilonim that decided to change the rules.

ETA: you still didn't answer my question. Should the government be allowed to tell a young man who wants to spend all his time learning torah that he cannot do so?

Last edited by cinnamon on Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

Success10 ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:30 pm

ROFL wrote:

I am in the us , on the videos streaming you see a lot of people milling around and lots of yelling. Did not see or hear tehlim or davening. And maybe those who don't believe in medinat eretz yisrael should leave , like blue rose posted , if that was a real sign at the rally, then the man holding it should make his way to the airport and get out. This was not a rally for davening for achdut it was an anti govt rally.

Chareidim lived in E'Y long before there was a medinat Yisrael. I'm not exactly sure why people who don't buy into it should have to leave.

↑ slushiemom

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:36 pm

cinnamon wrote:

Laws expire. Dynamics and demographics change over time, obviously. It's quite clear that the original law that stated that, exempting I believe somewhere around 700 yeshiva students, would never have meant to encompass the absurd situation going on today. The new law proposed, as I said, including delayed service, amnesty to whomever is of age now to immediately go to work, shortened service, service that includes Chesed within the chareidi community, and service that includes TORAH learning is VERY generous, and if the people actually knew the details, should be embraced instead of vilified.

The real resistance is due to the "leaders" losing their bubble like grip on their society. Well, guess what- they don't live in a bubble, and to keep acting like they do is absurd.

↑ shalhevet

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:36 pm

ROFL wrote:

That's fine then. You can come here and drive us into the sea. When you leave your home in America and bother to come. So glad you are a REAL Zionist (like blue rose). I hope you have a comfortable armchair.

And don't write about things you know nothing about. Next time come and live in Yerushalayim instead of judging events by what you watch on the internet. Maybe I should be DLKZ that you don't know what Tehillim or selichos are.

Imamother has hit a new low today. Too bad I logged in.

↑ Marion

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:39 pm

cinnamon wrote:

YES, the government should be allowed to tell a young man who wants to do whatever (learning Torah/medicine/whatever) that he cannot do so.

The problem is, Cinnamon, that there are many who are bench warmers, not learners. They should absolutely be drafted. The proposal is basically to create a chareidi "Atudot" program, if I understand it correctly. In regular Atudot a draftee can apply to a panel to be permitted to complete a program of study before his/her army service. Usually you're talking about a soldier-to-be who wants to go to med school or become an engineer. If the army says yes then they go study first...but then they owe the army extra service time in exchange for not having put their lives on hold to begin with. My BIL did this in engineering. Another friend did med school and then, of course, served as an army medic...for 7 years! That's 7 years WITHOUT keva.

↑ Tablepoetry ↓

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:49 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Everyone gets (or rather got) to choose. Your sons can also choose to learn full time in a yeshiva. This is the stupidest argument, because anyone could (under the old law) choose to learn, no matter what shape or form his kippa was.

Sorry, that's not a good argument. Because a) only some charedim and dattiim want to study full time in a yeshiva. So in other words, only charedim and dattiim (more chardal) get the ptor. And b) many many people in yeshivot aren't studying full time, I see some of them working (off the books), some wandering downtown, and some I'm sure just aren't concentrating (last I heard charedim don't have an exemption from problems with concentrating, ADHD and the like).
So bottom line, ALL the charedim are exempt, even if they aren't (really) learning, and the reason for the exemption isn't relevant to many non-charedim.

werty

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 1:50 pm

amother wrote:

and I will say it again.. An army that does not stop a female soldier from preventing a DATI LEUMI battalion from davening is not an army any frum young man should be in. Just because you know many young men who went in the way they came does not mean that the army is a good enviroment for a Chareidi young man. Part of a democracy is the freedom of religion.. freedom of religion means that you have the right to worship/practice as you choose. When the army has MANY incidents to the contrary . I.e. having women examine men when they for sure have men who can do it.. and then to have the examiners call them g-y for wanting this.. I can go on an on.

.

just curious - is there any significance in her gendar?

↑ cinnamon

Sun, Mar 02 2014, 2:09 pm

Marion wrote:

No it should not be able to tell anyone not to learn Torah. It should not be the one to decide which bochur is really learning and which is a "bench warmer" Do you know how many boys who were bench warmers became great talmidei chachamim because they weren't made to leave the yeshiva?