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↑ Isramom8 ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 4:06 pm

Some people who identify as Yeshivish or Chareidi do not hold that Modern Orthodoxy is a valid hashkafa.

Some do, feeling that it is just a different approach, and as long as halacha is followed, it doesn't matter.

Yet others believe that Yeshivish/Chareidi is an ideal, but living a sincere MO life isn't exactly bad.

Among my own family members there are different opinions.

Why harp on it?

↑ freidasima ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 4:19 pm

Because of the large number of charedi posters coming out of the woodwork in the past day or two and being applauded by other charedi posters when they say that MO rabbis aren't real rabbis, that MO hashkofo isn't real Orthodox hashkofo and that the MO way of life is a sin and a mistake.

I am yet to hear any other charedi poster other than you on this site say that MO rabbonim and their interpretation of halocho is a valid orthodox interpretation. That MO lifestyle and hashkofo is a valid orthodox Jewish lifestyle and hashkofo.

MO rabbinic interpretation of the 13 ikkarim is just the latest example of this issue. It is interesting that neither Yael nor any of the charedi mods or vocal posters have answered any of the questions I have posed about whether the MO rabbinical interpretation of these ikkarim such as spiritual ressurection, is an equally valid interpretation of the 13th ikkar.

The silence is deafening. If it is so simple and our hashkofo, and our rabbis interpretations - in this case to the ikkarim - are so equal to yours then were are the charedi mods, posters or Yael who are saying to out loud?

As I said, the silence on this matter speaks for itself. The only response to my questions on this matter is to hear charedi posters say "move on".

So I am waiting to hear it straight out if any charedi has the courage to do so...

imamiri ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 4:20 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

So then is it ok to point out Rabbi Weiss or Riskin do not have valid opinions? That makes it ok because some yeshivish or chassidim hold that MO is not a valid hashkafa? Because if it is, let the owner say so.

Marion

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 4:23 pm

Why are people picking on Freidasima? She's bringing you sources, you're choosing to misunderstand or misinterpret or misrepresent them. Why?

Jewishmom8 ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 4:29 pm

freidasima wrote:

no one has said the bolded above at all.
when you exaggerate and make things up in this way it gets people upset.
what do you expect?

↑ Jewishmom8

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 4:32 pm

freidasima wrote:

Let me get this.

So from the depths are you claiming the the MO derekh is just as good, as holy as the charedi derekh? that the litvish derekh is just as good and holy as the chassidic derekh? That the meshichisti lubavitch derekh is just as good and holy as the non meshichisti lubavitch derekh? That they are all equal before Hashem and just the only difference is that a particular person needs a particular derekh because of their own psychological or spiritual makeup?

So you are saying that Mo rabbonim are just as good and holy as charedi rabbonim? And their psikos as well?

I would say that any derech that does what it does within the framework of halacha is fine by me
wear whatever color yalmaka works.
dosnt matter to me as long as its on there

↑ PinkFridge ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 4:32 pm

freidasima wrote:

Oh yeah. I for one have never said this.
In fact, I never said something on a recent thread about hair covering, when someone pointed out that Rabbi Broye (IIRC) said that a certain view was only a limud zechus. I did NOT say that there are accepted, even if minority views, that interpret parua differently, and I didn't cite Hide and Seek, where there are a plethora of sources.

Lots of other things I've never said in my years here.

Though I have often added that if someone follows their derech consistently my hat's figuratively off to them. No, wait, I never did that either.

↑ Isramom8

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 4:34 pm

Okay. I'll state my personal view that I can accept and identify with a lot of what people refer to as right wing MO. And much of what people refer to as left wing MO really irks me and I don't consider it to be valid.

That said, the benefit of a lifestyle depends on where a person is coming from. I'd be beyond thrilled if my cousins who are practicing a foreign religion became MO BTs or Chabad BTs of any wing.

My education was a combination of RWMO and Yeshivish, so my views are kind of a mix even though in Israel I have chosen to identify with the label of Chareidi.

I think Imamother can take a lot, but there is a limit to how much left wing innovation the site is prepared to enjoy, and in the past two years or so, it has taken that turn.

↑ chani8 ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 4:37 pm

Why harp on it? LOL

Because, Isramom8, it's so insulting.

↑ etky ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 4:38 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

Thanks, it feels really great to be tolerated (by some).
Here I was thinking we were untouchables.

↑ MaBelleVie ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 4:39 pm

1. Large numbers? Please provided sources for these large number of posters saying what you claim.

2. Every woman on this site speaks for herself. I feel no need to pipe up and reassure you what my beliefs are just because someone else expressed something that offended you. I don't recall any MO posters ever informing me that they disagree with all the unpleasant sentiments you expressed regarding my derech. I don't expect them to.

↑ chani8 ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 4:39 pm

Can I just ask this?

Who are you to decide what is or is not valid?

gonewiththewind

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 4:46 pm

It's called being allowed to have beliefs and opinions.
What is this? The thought police?

↑ fromthedepths ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 5:46 pm

freidasima wrote:

Define what you mean by "normative Judaism".

So you also accept and think that Rabbis Shlomo Riskin, Avi Weiss, Benny Lau, David Stav, David Berger, Menachem Kellner, Jeffrey Wolff, and Daniel Sperber, who all are frum Jews and do what they do and write what they write lishem shomayim, are all good, holy, frum Jews whose derekh is equal, in the eyes of the Ribono Shel Olam, to the derekh of Rav Kanievsky, Rav Shteinman, etc? And their followers who hold as their rabbinic teachers do - are they all good and holy in your eyes because they do what they do because they believe in their rabbis and teachers and do it lishem shomayim?

Wow, this thread is fast. I don't have much time, so I'll respond to this before reading the rest of it. Forgive me if someone already said the same thing.

Sorry to disappoint you, FS, but I'm not about to say that the above mentioned rabbis are no good. Nor do I feel qualified to define normative Judaism. I prefer giving people the benefit of the doubt and presume that they are good, holy Jews unless proven otherwise. And I am not about to conduct an investigation on any of the above mentioned rabbis as I have absolutely no practical reason to do so. When it comes to the derech that I choose for myself I certainly do investigate. But given that, B"H, I find that my current community, my current rabbi and rebbetzin, and the sefarim I am learning, the shiurim I attend, are very conducive to my personal and spiritual growth at the moment, I am not interested in inspecting other people's ways to relate to Hashem for "kashrus." I am not a mashgiach.

I will say the following though. The MO rabbis that I've had the privilege to meet all made a very positive impression on me. Those are people associated with YU.

I've only had one occasion to speak to one YCT rabbi (about a project I'm working on, in case you're wondering). He also made a positive impression on me. As an aside, in the course of the conversation, I remarked that he seems more focused on bein adam lechaveiro than bein adam lemakom, and he agreed with me. Again, different neshamos come to this world on different missions. Some focus more on Hashem, and others focus more on helping people, and neither is better than the other.

If you think it's just me and doesn't reflect on my community, I'll tell you a few more things. Dh is even more accepting of Jews with a different hashkafa than I am. I can't handle the Chabad Yechi, and he just calmly says that they are entitled to their derech and that there is nothing wrong with it.

My Rav is also very open to people from other types of communities. In fact, he quotes rabbanim across the board, and has a personal relationship with Rabbi Bleich from YU, whom he always mentions with a lot of respect. Moreover, when I asked him last Shabbos about the Maharats, he said that he didn't see anything halachically wrong with it, but wasn't sure it was a good idea. He would never disparage the rabbis that promote it. And that's given that he has very strong opinions and does not at all hesitate to state them in public, let alone in a private conversation. FTR, my Rav does consider himself chareidi.

In conclusion, I'll tell you a story that's been the talk of the town. I won't mention names, since I didn't ask for permission, but you might know who I'm talking about. A certain MO rabbi wrote an article saying that he can't bring himself to make the beracha "shelo asani isha" any more. Two other rabbis wrote responses, one supportive and one critical. One of these rabbis asked the other rabbi to help him edit his article! True story. Machlokes leshem shamayim does not cause enmity.

↑ fromthedepths ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 5:52 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Exactly. I've been feeling lately, before Yael's announcement, that I'm not wanted on this site. Any MO want to speak up and tell me otherwise?

Yael

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 6:02 pm

Hello all,
I see this thread has become heated and it is necessary for me to step in. I have been extremely busy with personal life these past couple of days, but I will prioritize answering your questions.

freidasima wrote:

I am yet to hear any other charedi poster other than you on this site say that MO rabbonim and their interpretation of halocho is a valid orthodox interpretation. That MO lifestyle and hashkofo is a valid orthodox Jewish lifestyle and hashkofo.

Imamother policy is that MO is a valid orthodox sect. I had thought that was self understood when I accepted you as members, but its always good to reassure the MO women here that they are welcome on Imamother.

Quote:

MO rabbinic interpretation of the 13 ikkarim is just the latest example of this issue. It is interesting that neither Yael nor any of the charedi mods or vocal posters have answered any of the questions I have posed about whether the MO rabbinical interpretation of these ikkarim such as spiritual ressurection, is an equally valid interpretation of the 13th ikkar.

The silence is deafening. If it is so simple and our hashkofo, and our rabbis interpretations - in this case to the ikkarim - are so equal to yours then were are the charedi mods, posters or Yael who are saying to out loud?

Honestly it never occurred to me to differentiate between different interpretations of the 13 Ikkarrim.
If you believe in the 13 Principles of Faith, then what is there to ask? You believe then you believe. Which interpretation you believe in is something that you, freidasima, brought up. It would never have occurred to me to differentiate between different interpretations. Why are you forcing me to do so? Why are you highlighting the differences, instead of focusing on the idea that everyone here, as far as I know, does believe in any interpretation of the 13 principles.

We all share common ground in regard to the 13 Principles, why must you draw lines of separation when I am pretty sure everyone else would rather just enjoy sharing this commonality.

↑ imamiri

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 6:18 pm

Yael wrote:

freidasima wrote:

Quote:

Thank you, Yael.

↑ chani8 ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 6:32 pm

Yael wrote:

Imamother policy is that MO is a valid orthodox sect.

shlomitsmum

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 6:38 pm

Now that Yael has spelled out what was evident to me (that MO ladies were welcome here on Imamother)

I think some posters owe her an apology for not being DLZ (over taking time to respond to the controversy post announcement) , over reacting and ascribing ill intent to the announcement she made with no ill will
( IMO she bends backward to make all feel at home ,so I have no reason to think she was being fake ) .

Maybe I'm wrong but maybe It has got to upset her to see people showing such anger/chutzpah when she does this for FREE for US so we don't have to go to co-ed places

Looking forward to see some healing, forgiveness and B'H less drama.

faigie ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 7:50 pm

@shlomitsmum
What was obvious, is that people did not come out of the woodwork to support the MO posters. Yes Yael is the last word on this board, but she is by no means the only voice here.
YOU knew it was self evident? Where
was the rest of the HUGE membership of this board to lend a voice?

Last edited by faigie on Thu, Jun 27 2013, 8:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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