Mashiach and Eliyahu Hanavi

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↑ fromthedepths ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 8:07 pm

faigie wrote:

What was obvious, is that people did not come out of the woodwork to support the MO posters. Yes Yael is the last word on this board, but she is by no means the only voice here.
YOU knew it was self evident? Where
was the rest of the HUGE membership of this board to lend a voice?

Sigh. Show me at least one post saying that at least some posters do not want the MO on imamother?

Why do you have to make an issue out something that is a non-issue?

bamamama

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 8:22 pm

fromthedepths wrote:

faigie wrote:

Sigh. Show me at least one post saying that at least some posters do not want the MO on imamother?

Why do you have to make an issue out something that is a non-issue?

I think one *could* imply from Isramom's post that she doesn't think the MO belong on imamother.

But, if we start getting rid of everyone we think is doing it wrong, I'll be the only one left! Wink

JK.

That said, shlomitsmum's post is a little disingenuous given that she has stayed out of the fray thus far only to come and reprimand us for poor behaviour (well, not you, fromthedepths).

↑ faigie ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 8:58 pm

@ bamamama
True Dat.

↑ MaBelleVie ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 9:12 pm

Talk about coming out of the woodwork to reprimand.

↑ faigie

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 9:18 pm

.....what about coming out of the woodwork to reprimand?

↑ fromthedepths ↓

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 11:22 pm

To get back to the topic of the thread, here's a nice article on Eliyahu Hanavi and his role in the final geula: http://yeshivahcollege.com/?p=645

Miri1

Thu, Jun 27 2013, 11:33 pm

fromthedepths wrote:

To get back to the topic of the thread, here's a nice article on Eliyahu Hanavi and his role in the final geula: http://yeshivahcollege.com/?p=645

Thank you.

↑ freidasima ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2013, 3:47 am

From the depths, what you write about yourself, your acceptance for MO rabbonim and your own rov's feelings is definitely a (welcome) anomaly in the charedi world today. You may not realize that, but it is.

The charedi world in EY for example refuses to use the term Rabbi or Rov in front of the name of a non charedi (MO or DL) rov appearing in their newspapers. The charedi world continuously publicizes kol korehs signed by many aged charedi rabbonim (who often have no idea that their name is being used because their askonim are the ones giving permission)against DL rabbonim's psikos, calling them names of which the term "toi-im" (mistaken) is the nicest one used and usually much harsher ones appear. Much of the charedi world views the MO lifestyle as being one of "compromise" and "sin", and many posts about this have appeared on this board during the past years that I have been a member.

So it is definitely refreshing to read what you write and yes, from my experience in contact with the charedi world and charedi rabbonim (and through my work I have a lot of contact), it is definitely an anomaly, certainly an anomaly for those of us living in EY where the largest numbers of charedim in the world live, or so we are told by demographers.

↑ freidasima ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2013, 3:56 am

Yael, thank you very much for what you wrote. I hope that whatever things in your personal life that are keeping you busy now are, that they are good and healthy things!

Now for what you wrote. I pointed out what I did about the interpretations of the Ikkarim not to be argumentative, not to be divisive, but just the opposite, to AVOID arguments in the future. Why? because that's the crux of the matter. Interpretation. Because it will be very easy for women to say "sure I believe in the Ikkarim" but when one asks a direct question about it, and you get an answer from various women - answers that are sure to come up eventually as topics here - you will see that there will be posters who will state straightout that what those other women are saying is kefira and doesn't go according to the ikkarim at all. And they will want to have them thrown off the site.

(and just BTW it can work in both directions, meaning a meshichist can say something or allude to something as I know the topic can't be discussed directly, and another poster will state "that is kefira of the 12th ikkar and want THEM thrown off the site)...

Which is why it is important for you to state that you want women, posters, who accept the ikkarim and their interpretation according to ANY and EVERY orthodox interpretation (meaning by an orthodox rabbi, even if he is a minority interpretation). To remind everyone, Rabbi Menachem Kellner is an Orthodox Rabbi. Rabbi Jeffrey Wolff is an Orthodox Rabbi. Rabbi David Berger is an Orthodox Rabbi, Rabbi Avi Weiss is an Orthodox Rabbi, and Rabbi Daniel Sperber is an Orthodox Rabbi. And so, just BTW, are the Chabad Meshichist rabbonim. They too are Orthodox rabbis.

To keep OUT of controversy I am not mentioning the names of the Maharatot whom many on this board would not accept as being Orthodox Rabbis as their ktav smicha does not state "Yoreh Yoreh".

That will solve the problem and give posters coverage by you when the time comes that a topic is raised and someone will write something along the lines of "one doesn't have to believe in corporeal (physical body) ressurection to be yotezi believeing in the 13th ikkar, it is enough to believe in spiritual ressusrection of the immortal soul" (as many Modern Orthodox Rabbis have stated).....and another charedi poster will come along and accuse them of apikorsus, of not keeping to the guidelines of this site, etc.

So please, if you do mean ALL Orthodox interpretations of the ikkarim, state so, including in the bylines or whatever of this site, to avoid this blowing up sometime in the future.

↑ fromthedepths ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2013, 9:23 am

FS, I don't have the zechus of living in EY. I'm in the US. And here, different kinds of frum Jews work together.

That said, if you look at the disagreements throughout history you'll see rabbis using very harsh language. That doesn't mean that they wouldn't invite each other for a cup of coffee. Remember the story in the Gemara about one rabbi shechting another one at a Pesach seder?

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing. That's the beauty of Judaism. There are so many paths to choose from in avodas Hashem.

↑ freidasima ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2013, 9:27 am

from the depths, you can see that you surely don't live in EY.
Here we have no trouble understanding how one group of Rabbonim was moser another group of rabbonim in Eastern Europe less than three hundred years ago, to get them to sit in the non jewish jail and rot there...vehameivin yovin.

Invite for seder? They wouldn't allow their adherents to even daven with them in minyan.
It's a different world here.

↑ chani8 ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2013, 9:30 am

fromthedepths wrote:

FS, I don't have the zechus of living in EY. I'm in the US. And here, different kinds of frum Jews work together.

Makes you want to leave here for that reason alone, sometimes. I hate the seperatism and elitism and judgementalness.

And I remember our old community (in the US) . . . wait. Now that I think about it, they also had problems with elitism and judgementalness and separatism. But I was on the elite side of the fence and didn't realize it as much.

↑ fromthedepths ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2013, 9:47 am

In my community, unity is a high priority. Without going into the details, we recently had a kashrus issue the threatened to divide the community, and rabbis on all sides, including very chareidi ones, worked hard to prevent division.

↑ chani8 ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2013, 10:04 am

fromthedepths wrote:

I can't even picture how that would work. Here it would be that the charedi would try to convince everyone to hold their way. They wouldn't budge an inch. And then if they didn't get their way, they'd separate.

↑ MaBelleVie

Fri, Jun 28 2013, 10:07 am

Chani8, of course it exists. I am BH zocha to live in a very unified community. You can pm me if you want to hear some beautiful examples. This is why I find it so sickening when on imamother there is so much animosity and hostility over nothing more than labels.

↑ chani8

Fri, Jun 28 2013, 10:19 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

Yes, I imagine that living in a unified community would make it hard to understand all this and it would be shocking. Truth is, to those who it doesn't affect, they may not even know it exists.

Truth is, when I was charedi, I thought the animosity had to somehow be justified. Daas Torah and all that.

Two and a half years later, I'm not seeing any justifiable reason to be so hostile against the DL/MO or even against the mesorati, or even against Reform, conservative, or atheists.

They look so different out here. So non-threatening. I can't figure out why we wouldn't want them on imamother even. Really. They're just labels. And we're all human.

naturemom

Fri, Jun 28 2013, 1:49 pm

Marion wrote:

Why are people picking on Freidasima? She's bringing you sources, you're choosing to misunderstand or misinterpret or misrepresent them. Why?

As a highly educated proud MO woman I want to state that I do not agree with many of freidasima's posts on the topic of mashiach and the 13 ikarim. And neither do most of the MO authorities I am familiar with.
FS is bringing a minority opinion that very few agree with. And she has brought only one source, Kellner's Book.
There are many more sources available within the MO world which hold otherwise.

↑ fromthedepths ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2013, 3:42 pm

chani8 wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

I agree 100%. I think animosity can only thrive in places where there is no contact between different groups. Once people get do know each other they realize that the "other" people are just as normal and human and great as the people in their group.

↑ fromthedepths ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2013, 3:46 pm

chani8 wrote:

fromthedepths wrote:

That's really sad.

I don't think the chareidi here had to actually compromise their standards, in terms of kashrus. But they did have to take responsibility for ensuring that their standards are kept, and to silence some of their own overzealous followers that put down a certain psak, by a chareidi Rav.

↑ Potato Kugel ↓

Fri, Jun 28 2013, 4:59 pm

Look
I've tried to get FS to list a single source but she can't.
The reason she can't is because there are none.
All sources that disagreed with the Rambam were to the "right" so to speak. As I explained in tother posts.
For a good example one could see the Ramban's sharp disagreemnts with the Rambam in Parsh Chaya Sarah and in Parshas VaYikra.
Furthermore one can see Rav Shamshon R. Hirsh's sharp critique of the Rambam in the Nineteen Letters which has been called more forceful then RSRH's critique of Moses Mendelsohn.
In fact the Chazon Ish instructed translators of THe Nineteen Letters in his time to leave out this part of The Nineteen Letters for fear it would be misinterpeted.
Now the reason that FS cannot even list a single qoute from Prof. Kallners book is simple.
Prof. Kallner himself admits readily that he is attempting to "re-interpet" the Rambam in ways that the Rambam has never been understood at all.
Period.
Prof. Kellner admits that throughout the Centuries those who disagreed with any of the 13 ikkrim according to their- simple understanding have been viewed at the very least as Rashaim, and the prevalent view has ruled them "heretics'' as the MO Rabbi Bleich stated to a poster on this forum, their wine Halachically was considered and is considered Yayin Nesech.
Prof Kellner uses an "acedemic" formula to attempt to lay the case that what in his circles is labeled the "traditional" approach to the Rambam was wrong as in his view the Rambam either never meant what he wrote ch"v or was wrong, even though the Halacha was ruled according to him.
That is the essence of Prof. Kellners books (he has more then on) it is why no Orthodox Theologian takes him seriously even in the MO camp.
And it is these conclusion that Prof. Berger, yes a MO Jew takes severe issue with.
Now it is true that Marc Shapiro takes the postions of Kellner, and is perhaps even more "radical".
For a thourough analysis of Shapiros positions on the Rambam and a point by point rebuttal one can see the MO journal Hakirah Winter edition Vol 7 page 107 (it is quite thourough so its pretty long about 50 pages or so).
Again there are no sources.
Kellner himself states clearly that his book is an attempt at finding a way to "Re-define" Judaic Theological thought.
Since Chareidim, Chassidim, and yes MO Rabbis do not wish to redefine anything they stick with the traditional approach which has been ruled over the centuries.
the beliefs Kellner states are permitted are infact heretical.
The only new thing about Kellner is that he attempts to remain "orthodox" while holding by a belief system that has been ruled "heretical" for hundreds of years.
Again I challenged FS to bring sources.
She cannot becuase they don't exist, however in her view one doesn't need them as all the Teshuvos throughout the centuries (some of which I have listed) that state expictly that the views she is advocating are flat out heretical were straight out wrong Chas v'shelom.
Of course FS refuses to admit to this since that would give lie to her assertions again and again that it is the "Chareidim" moving to the right ect..
It is not it is a flat out rejection of radical re-interpetation that as Buchman demonstrates in Hakirah is flat out wrong and based on extremley shoddy scholarship.
The "traditionalists" remain that traditionalists.

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