Difficult 10 year old

rainbow

Mon, Aug 20 2012, 2:36 am

Reading your original post brought me back in time many years ago.
A therapist I consulted with, recommended I sit down with my son each day and spend some time playing his favorite game, activity, or what have you. I would take my son out to the store for ice cream, I would sit and play ''Monopoly'', I'd play hide-and-seek; anything he really enjoyed.
Within a week my son was so much more cooperative, fighting less with his siblings, and overall a calmer child at home.
I wasn't able to do this on my own. I had to hire a sitter to be with my other kids while I devoted time to him. Eventually, I hired the sitter more often, so that I could spend one-on-one time with each of the other children as well.
Today my children are grown, for the most part, and the investment in one-on-one time I gave them years ago has paid off, I think.
And yes, it is not unusual to hate a child, to want to get rid of one's child, to have murderous feelings toward one's child. It's ok to fantasize of getting rid of him/her. Oh, the things you can do in your fantasies....and your child will never know about them...

↑ granolamom ↓

Mon, Aug 20 2012, 8:09 am

hi OP
about the explosive child, my kid wasnt very talkative either, I didnt talk things through so much. I just used the philosophy, made unilateral guesses and watched for results.
also, I got this from dina friedman's parenting class, but there a couple of 'check in' questions I ask each of my kids a couple of times a year. do it when things are relatively calm and friendly.
-suppose you could change any thing about your life, what three things would you choose?
-if you could have any thing you wanted, what three things would you want?
I think there was another one but I'm forgetting it right now, those two are my main ones.
obviously if a kid says he would get rid of homework and choose ice cream for dinner every night, you know he's basically ok. but if he says I would get rid of the ringing in my ears or I wish I had friends who liked me, it lets you know something is up. either way its a way into your kids head.

willow

Mon, Aug 20 2012, 12:06 pm

Tamiri wrote:

Go to a neurologist or a child psychitrist/psychologist with an expertise in children/children with ADD. In Israel there is a test administered on a computer which gives clear indication in less than 3 hours as to whether the child is/isn't ADD. They child performs the test first medication free (also no caffeine, chocolate, cola, coffee in the system). Then, they give the child a dosage of Ritalin according to body weight and readminister the test. Results show if there is a difference in performance, and based on the results analyzation, you "know" if the kid isn't/is.
In the U.S., based on my description of my child (this was in NJ), the pediatrician prescribed and we never had to see an expert.
I'm not a proponent of meds. But MAN can they make a difference in the quality of life of the child and everyone around him. You want to know if it makes the child act normal? Well. My experience is that normal is what you described in your original post. The meds slow the child down, allow him to ignore "annoyances" such as siblings, focus and concentrate and just be calmer. You have to see how it works on yours, if it's decided he needs the meds.

My dd never got offered this test when they were saying to test her. We filled out a form and her teacher filled out a form. Then we took her for a hearing and eye test.

5*Mom

Mon, Aug 20 2012, 12:40 pm

Yes, yes, and yes to granolamom's posts. All of them.

The other helpful feature of Ross Greene's Explosive Child is the ALSUP: Assessment of Lagging Skills and Unsolved Problems. If a child has a skills deficit, such as emotional disregulation or inflexible thinking, etc. the only thing that will help him is identifying it and teaching him the skills he is lacking. You may be able to identify the areas where he needs more help on your own or you may need a professional evaluation. Whether or not he officially qualifies for a diagnosis of whatever, finding someone who can identify your son's specific lagging skills and teach them is crucial and probably the most helpful thing you can do for his long-term development and success. Speech language pathologists can do this. I highly, highly recommend finding one in your area who can.

Personal disclosure: I *have* reached the point of not being able to stand one of my children, which tends to happen when the child davka needs our love and support the most. I found it unbelievably helpful to keep a notebook of the nice, good, kind, smart, cute, helpful, etc.. things I observed this child doing as they happened. It was slow-going at first, but keeping the notebook helped me to be on the lookout for positive things about my child to write down, and that affected how I thought and felt about her, which in turn affected how she felt about herself and me, and had positive effects on her behavior and most of all on our relationship. It didn't solve the problems but it did help to create the positive, loving and supportive atmosphere necessary to begin the work of solving the problems.

Leahmom

Mon, Aug 20 2012, 2:06 pm

Hi,

Oh boy, this is a tough situation but I'd like to offer somethings from my own hard won experience with my 12/14.

First I want to compliment you on creating a safe loving environment where your son can "let go" Although you might not appreciate his actions, since he saves this behavior for you instead of others...it sounds like he's too afraid of losing his friends etc if he treats them badly..but you? You love him no matter WHAT he does..so why should he care..It is kinda harsh but true and proof of the fantastic parenting you've done so far.

You love him...he knows it..So..he can spill out his...(choose one- Anger, frustration, rage, fear, boredom) on you.
At 10 it is possible that he could very well could be going through an early puberty..why not? Girls do..boys can too. (I hit this age with ALL the teens-my 14 is at 5'8""!! I blame the tons TONS of milk she drank LOL ) Thus he can also begin the lovely act of separation with (choose one- defiance, smart mouth, arguing, opposition) but at such a tender age it's not stomp off to the mall it's scream and cry and NOT KNOW WHY but just know he is incredibly unhappy ..still a "child" enough to blame YOU.

Possible solutions.
Meds- Talk to a DR. it is a stop gap measure ONLY and the side effects can be deadly. We tried it with the 12 and she became suicidal. (Took her OFF Immediately and she recovered THANK G-d!) You might also test his blood work and see if he is entering puberty early. Hormones are pretty deadly..ask our husbands how certain times of the month, they fling chocolate at us and FLEE FOR THEIR LIVES!!! Smile

What now? Well roll up your sleeves and get to work.

What do you know
1. He CAN behave better around others..so it is not an "inability" that you're dealing with..it is a "choice"
2. He is defiant/oppositional-understandable if he's going through early P.
3. He is mean to the others. (frystration, testing, misplaced anger etc
4. He's got you on the Ropes.

#1. Thing... BACK DOWN.. Give him room to Back down.. I know you're upset, frustrated etc..but what does the Torah say...Raise up a child in the way that he goes...meaning Each kid is different so your parenting must reflect it..and please and also let's let go of "fair" at the same time..that's a place where they sell cows and judge pies. You're making a human. You are a Jewish Mom and his soul chose yours for a reason..YOU HAVE THE STRENGTH TO DO THIS!

2. Breathe and KNOW it's ok to be angry and frustrated..this job isn't for sissies!
3. Find your sense of humour.

4. Work smarter not harder..if you know he won't back down..don't give him anything to go up against.

Ex. My 12..I would tell her do..XYZ...she would keep arguing I'd deliberately IGNORE her and then look up in "surprise" "Oh are you still here?" turn AROUND and get busy with something else. Giving her NOTHING to fight/argue against..Ok.so what if she didn't do the REASONABLE task? Nothing..if it was put away her clothes and she didn't..I didn't.. I also didn't wash her clothes for her since they never made it into the hamper and when she complained I typed out the instructions for the washer and left them for her with a note..that I was running the family and busy and since she wanted to do a different "routine" then mine that was cool...help herself. . I also instituted the "don't expect ME to care more about your things that YOU do" If you throw it on the floor,,it must be trash..OUT IT GOES..and I always just shrugged..oh well. I thought that what YOU wanted...etc.

5. I became deaf/blind upon occasion...it is also called picking your battles carefully.
Wait until something is coming up that HE wants and then DO NOT USE IT AS A CLUB>>DONT TAKE IT AWAY as a "PUNISHMENT" That would be revenge and it unworthy of any parent to take advantage-plus he'll know and have an actual REASON not to get along with you. AVOID THIS...and what you can do is ..You get excited FOR HIM and then NICELY inform him that he must do (whatever you're asking to earn it) as in.."I'd LOVE to take you and your sister out for IceCream but the house needs to be picked up before I can leave". Then I'd write a list post it on the refrig, and WALK AWAY. That way my 12 could write her initials by the task.. I didn't assign anything she chose.. I went back to my 2 year old handling..Do you want toast OR oatmeal..as opposed to Do you want to eat.

Trust me there was TIMES when I locked myself in my bedroom, picked up a book and put my earbuds in. Just walked away..These were times when she was screaming at me. I'd tell her calmly..Nope..not the way you talk to an Ema. I get you're mad at me, but I'm not just your mommy..I'm an ema and we treat ema's with respect. When you talk to me like a person. I can listen to your words. AND WALK AWAY. Don't get into a fight. You'll lose.. and you'll scare him. Think about how it must feel to be SO out of Control ..it's like a toddler in a way..just a mouthy reasoning toddler..lol.. He probably is desperate for you to STOP him and the ways you're are using are not effective for this kind of a kid. On the better side of things..is that Hashem gave him a pretty plucky soul, these are the ones to stand up and be For Hashem against ANYONE. NO ONE is going to push your kid around EVER...which is great until You can't, right? LOL..It is always easier when they are toddlers,
Now the big question... Is it right to turn upside your house cause one kid can't deal with the current system..I don't know..if he broke his leg, would you allow him to sleep downstairs cause the stairs are too difficult for him? Yes..just like that. If you're considering meds..you are seeing something that needs help..Changing the house to help the kid is what the house is SUPPOSED to do. I have a daughter with Aspergers, a kid with ADD and one with Brain Damage..TRUST me..my house is clean, fairly calm and content. You can do it. Of course I had to use strategies that were effective..like buy a swing and let the 12 go out and sit with a radio by herself and swing when she wanted quiet time AWAY from us. I also had to act at all TIMES with love and sympathy. One time we were in a big fight and it was going badly and she said something that I wanted to kill her for..literally kill her and she knew it by the look on my face. She got this funny look and just stopped....she stopped and looked at me and asked..Can we just go back? can we stop this? (THANK G-D!) I just took a deep breath, smiled big and made some stupid statement about liking the new cushions on the couch..she followed my lead and we went on. I am grateful that G-d gave me the STRENGTH to meet her halfway...Now..she has more good days than bad days.. and actually whispered to me (when she thought I was asleep lol) "I love you mommy, I love you so much" She's going to be fine and we'll go on to have issues cause thats the deal BUT she can trust me to be strong FOR her..to prop her up for her benefit not for my ease.
I know my sweet kid was in there but I had to decide that her well-being was more important than me being "right" or "winning" There is no "winning" forcing a child to bow to you because when they can rebel they will and in much much more HORRIBLE ways. The world is a tough place and has plenty of traps for unhappy kids.
Now I know he is brutalizing the others. Picking on them for attention you think..ok..so what if he is? You can tell him thats not the way we treat others.. (which you've probably have) you can remove him/distract him (which you probably already have) OR..you can stop WHATEVER it is you're doing..lean down and give him a hug and be empathetic to him..(You must be feeling so icky inside right now cause I know you know that **that** was unfair. You must be worrying over something. What can I do to HELP YOU make this better?) LOL Do not believe him when he tells you to send the others away..but do listen if he says it. He's telling you something, hear him.
The final piece...I know there are tons of people who would insist on punishement, a slap or a paytch here and there and if you're a parent you might have tried that once or twice. I KNOW it would feel pretty good since you're a decent parent to have this little mOnster just knock IT OFF! However..you were given a pretty special little kid..yeah he's going through something and yes you should check it out with a DR. BUT NO PILL lasts for 24 hours...ADD meds last 8sh hours and has wear off so no matter what YOU must come up with NEW STRATEGIES. Yes..NEW ONES..cause the OLD ONES don't work. Your kid KNEW he would enter this world with these issues ..he CHOSE your soul to mother him, he chose YOU because you are the one best able to help him achieve his high potential. Come to think of it..he is also the best way for YOU to achieve YOUR high potential.. A match made in heaven. Hashem is smart like that...LOL
I would also offer that some kids just don't fit the mold but G-d doesn't make junky souls. Right now..you have a lot of advantage...he KNOWS you love him. He's testing you and you have have HAVE to respond in a loving way.
!. Don't fight. 2. Give him a way to Back down. 3 Laugh 4. Work smarter 5. Love this kid and LOVE YOURSELF 5. DAVEN that YOU should gain the wisdom for his benefit..6. Take breaks 7. Make the other children part of the "team" I tell the 14 sometimes that 12 is having a day, just give her a break and judge favorably..and leave her alone. AS WE DID FOR HER when she wasyounger...... Is it fair? Remember Fair= is a place where they sell cows and judge pies. Wow this was a super long post but having gone through this a couple of times I just wanted to reach out. a final note. What about Kibbud Av'm? What is it that is said..One must not beat a child because it could tempt him to break Kibbud Av'm. (I think there is a spagetti noodles/shoestring metaphor somewhere when it talks about corporal punishment) Kibbud Av'm is important..treat him in a manner where you teach him by your actions HOW IMPORTANT it is. Isn't that after all how we are supposed to parent? Love and kindness and hefty dose of patience.
I hope this helps you to see the situation in a different sense. Hugs and prayers your way.
Best,
L

↑ granolamom ↓

Mon, Aug 20 2012, 3:17 pm

Leahmom, that was a long post but not a single extra word.
some solid advice and good insights too.
I think I'm going to use your Fair = place where they sell cows and judge pies next time one of my kids complains something isnt fair.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Aug 27 2012, 9:39 pm

Sadly reading your post- I so badly wish I had some information to share with you- so much of it sounds like our situation as well.

a few things that might be worth looking into: Anxiety I am learning comes across very interestingly in children- they can react in the only way they know how. often anger and frustration.

Also, he sounds like my son in the sense that he seems very misunderstood. the fact that younger sibs can be more in control of their emotions may make things even more difficult for him.

We are currently working with a behavioral therapist and have discovered quite a bit by doing neurological testing as well.

I'm sending a hug and a bracha that we all find a way to reach and appreciate our children.

Belle

Mon, Aug 27 2012, 10:24 pm

OP - You should definitely have your child tested by a child psychiatrist. It could be a severe form of ADHD, but I think it is more intense than ADHD. ADHD kids (I have one and possibly two) generally are nudniky, disorganized, but not necessarily as defiant as you described. The key to udnerstanding him is his defiance. To me this screams ODD - meaning Oppositional Defiance Disorder. I know, it sounds like a new diagnosis, but believe me, kids who have ODD are on a different planet than those who are just "acting out" because they are misunderstood, etc. It sounds like you are an otherwise good, decent, caring parent, and most kids are resiliant to our myriad mistakes. An otherwise "normal" child would not act so extreme at such a young age. I believe the children with ODD have some sort of chemical or neurological imbalance, like ADD kids. I have no idea what they give to treat it, but it seems quite certain that some sort of medication is needed for this child.

Please do not hesitate to take him to a specialist. Sometimes you have to go to more than one before you find the right shaliach. Make lots of phone calls, call your local medical referral agency -- but definitely take him. Just think, with the right medicine, you could liberate him from lots of his behavioral stuff. As hard as it is for you and your family, it makes him more miserable. He cannot be happy!!

↑ granolamom ↓

Mon, Aug 27 2012, 11:46 pm

Afaik, there is no medication or talk therapy treatment for ODD, which is a very good reason to think twice before going for a dx. Not saying you should or shouldn't but think.... What will you do or feel like to hear a dx that has no 'cure'?

The explosive child book deals a lot with the issue of ODD, and really, I personally believe that it's easy to misdiagnose it. Lots of kids has troubles that don't fit in a box, ODD is a convenient box. I also believe that the overwhelming majority of troubled kids can be helped , it's a matter of finding the key. And of course hard work and siyata dishmaya

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 1:30 am

Been there, done that, know how hard it is. You've actually received a lot of excellent advice here and I hope some of it will work for you.

Try to find a few moments of quiet time for yourself so you don't burn out. The experts say that bad behavior at home is less of a long term problem than bad behavior in the outside world.

My 18 year old DS took us to hell and back from the time he was a toddler. We are just now seeing him getting control of his temper and taking some responsibility for his actions.

Keep working on it, don't give up and daven.

FranticFrummie ↓

Thu, Sep 13 2012, 3:03 am

Please, do some research on ODD, as the above posters have mentioned!

My best friend has 3 out of 5 children with ODD, and I understand exactly what you're saying. The community has been horrible to the parents and the kids, saying terrible things about their parenting skills, not letting their kids play with others, getting kicked out of school repeatedly, and even being banned from the shul. It's absolutely heartbreaking.

I've seen my friend's two year old, when offered ice cream, start yelling "NO NO NO!" and having a tantrum. She wants that ice cream, everyone knows she wants it, but the desire to defy is even stronger. She can't even ask for the ice cream until she gets over her tantrum and feels like she's "won" somehow. It's weird to watch. If you want to get her to do anything, just tell her the opposite. "Whatever you do, DON'T take off your coat and hang it up!" (although she's getting smarter, and will often just throw the coat at you and scream NO!) The two older kids fight non stop, and pick on the two middle kids all day long. It's a zoo. I actually have to take an anxiety pill just to go to them for Shabbos.

Unfortunately, there's no "pill" for ODD like there is for ADHD, but there have been promising trials with anti-anxiety meds and cognitive behavior therapy. It's like anger management x 1,000, and a constant battle against the "defiant dragons" that seem to compel kids to do the opposite.

↑ granolamom ↓

Thu, Sep 13 2012, 8:31 pm

ime, 2 yo's dont have ODD. I don't believe they begin using that diagnosis so early on. I do know what you are talking about, a 2 yo tantrum that is very unlike a typical tantrum but a very strong need to defy authority. one of my kids was like this, it got a lot better when I began to learn about temperament and goodness of fit and learned how to work with what we had (child's temperament and mine).
Raising your spirited child is a good book for the younger kids like this.

↑ FranticFrummie ↓

Thu, Sep 13 2012, 10:18 pm

granolamom wrote:

If I hadn't seen the exact same pattern with the two older kids, I would totally agree with you. I've taught preschool, and I know what normal tantrums look like (as well as my own dd). Even as a baby, this girl was constantly angry at everything. I don't mean kvetchy, I mean furiously, intensely ANGRY. Her first word was "NO!", and her first sentence was "YOU GO AWAY!" (I used to hear that one a lot, because I used to baby sit her and her next oldest brother, who was a delicious angel.)

Her parents admit that she's exactly like the older two were at that age. You'd have to see it to believe it, it's SO not normal.

↑ granolamom ↓

Fri, Sep 14 2012, 2:15 pm

oh, I believe it. I just don't think ODD is diagnosed in children that young.

↑ FranticFrummie

Fri, Sep 21 2012, 3:36 am

granolamom wrote:

oh, I believe it. I just don't think ODD is diagnosed in children that young.

They didn't used to diagnose ADD/ADHD, Autism, Aspergers and a lot of other things until ages 6 or more. Early child intervention studies have come a LONG way since then. They might not be formally diagnosing ODD so early right now, but I won't be surprised to see that change over the years. It's nowhere near as common as ADD, etc. and there's no money to be made in pharmaceuticals, so you won't see any major changes in diagnosis in the near future.

ODD is such a strange condition, because you can see that the kids WANT to be good. They have good hearts, and desperately want to be loved and accepted, but there's another side of them that fights with them constantly, like two dragons locked in mortal combat. They are fighting themselves so much more than they are fighting anyone around them, and it's so sad to watch. To me, it looks a lot like claustrophobia. Some part of their psyche is feeling constrained somehow, and there's a gut level panic reaction that says "Freak out and escape or you will DIE!" - even while their logic is telling them that they are not in danger, and that the freaking out is not in their best interest. They just can't seem to stop that "panic attack like" defense that shows up as "defiance".

IMHO, the best current hope for these kids is stress management tools, guided hypnosis, and lots of positive feedback for when they can control themselves in a triggering situation. Negative feedback NEVER works.

↑ granolamom

Sat, Sep 22 2012, 11:25 pm

I totally agree that this pattern can emerge in the very young. I've seen it and you are on the money, it is very unlike a typical 2 yo tantrum. I also agree wholeheartedly that negative feedback will not help.

have you read the explosive child? he talks about these kids as having a ridiculously low frustration tolerance coupled with extreme lack of flexibility. you can imagine how that would lead to extreme 'defiance'. he says they kinda get stuck, the frustration and inflexibility leads to a meltdown (or explosion) and they cannot make it stop. it is no longer about the initial trigger, it takes on a life of its own and cycles round and round with the kids brain literally locked on the chaos. they know they are out of control and yes, they do panic. which doesnt help them manage the situation.
he has a system to teach parents to stop the cycle in the short term and also to help these kids develop some frustration tolerance and learn to be a tad more flexible using more adaptive ways to manage their frustrations.
it makes alot of sense and it works.

↑ amother

Sun, Sep 23 2012, 1:41 am

My daughter is about to get an ADD evaluation. So I went to the library trying to make sense of all this because I thought there's no way my daughter has ADD. She's not hyperactive, she can be a good student if she feels like it, I see her very focused when she feels like it. etc. So I read some books and it seems that there's two different or three different types of ADD. We parents don't know what ADD is so we can exclude it when we're having problems instead of going to a specialist. Well my dh almost certainly has ADD and I've had terrible SB problems all because of his ADD which I can only see now. My two oldest must have it as well. The oldest has a tremendous temper and everything but music and videos bores her. She's impulsive and a shopaholic too. My second is extremely bright and creative who I used to think had ODD for sure. She was always angry, had no friends, sloppy, and lazy. As she got into her teens the anger is mainly gone but there are other things that still remain that need to be dealt with. Reading these books have changed my life, and this is before the evaluations. I don't take things personally anymore now, I don't feel like a failure. When a book can describe my children, when the authors never met them or my dh, then I know that it's not their fault or mine and that there is hope.