is the bais yaakov system failing us???

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Feb 29 2012, 12:12 pm

Merrymom wrote:

I speak hebrew fluently and I didn't until I was 19 years old. All those years of the dreaded milim and memorization really came in handy when I finally decided that I need to speak the language. Another thing, college was laughably easy for me after years of struggling in a frum school. Our brains are sharper, we're more focused, more hardworking, all because of this training that we get. In no way do I think it's a waste of time. The only girls whose self-esteem suffers from their lack of success in this area, is from those whose parents make her feel like a dummy. If you know that you were willing to put in the effort, that you would be successful then not being at the top of the class is really no big deal. Now if they were threatening to leave you back because of your chumash grades or refusing to acknowledge your presence in class because of your lazy attitude, that would be very different. Of course I do find alot of the subject matter to be unnecessary to girls but my biggest problem is not what they're learning in school, but what is expected of them outside of school. What kind of girls are we raising who are too busy with rambans to even learn how to cook or learn other necessary life skills. Erev y"t and erev shabbos I can have only the most minimal expectations of my daughters as they're too busy to help me.

I just wanted to add that not everyone who doesn't do well is lazy, it can be a learning disorder or just someone that isn't academically inclined. I really still think that what I said earlier still applies though. If the parents are proud of their daughter and discuss her grades in a positive way (seeing that she is trying her best) then that should not damage her self-esteem. Of course there always seems to be a nasty teacher, and you must sit down with your daughter and explain that not all people are completely sane even though they are the adult.

If it was so laughably easy for you, why did you drop out as you stated on another thread?

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Feb 29 2012, 12:30 pm

amother wrote:

Frenchfry wrote:

Amother, would you be so glad that the schools were catering to the brighter girls if your DD weren't one of them? I was also one of the brighter girls and loved my LK classes, but now I see very little relevance that they have in my life, with the exception of teaching. I think in my seventh grade class, for every two girls who are enjoying the stimulation there are at least three who are frustrated, and worst of all, suffereng socially b/c they think others see them as "dumb". All for what purpose????

I think you are referring to me. My daughter is not a gifted child. She has been in remedial classes and has had tutors throughout her life. If she absorbs a small precentage of what is offered and in turn can raise her daughters to aspire to learn to the level Hashem fashioned them, I will feel my tuition is well spent. I don't want the schools dummied down. I want students like my daughter to strive. If my daughter comes home with a "C" and she did her best, I am proud. I don't need her to make "A"s so her alf esteem is improved.

Her self esteem is just fine. She is eidle and has a strong grounding. I could not do this without BY and the dedicated teachers.

Maybe you don't mind if she gets a C but did you ever ask her how she feels?

I failed through school and have some learning disabilities. It killed my self esteem. Even now I have a job and family, it still haunts me.

And yes I went to a very prestigious BY.

As I stated her self esteem is good. We do talk about it rather often. I have a genus level IQ as does another member of our imediate family. Hashem gave me my intellect the same way he have me my eye color. It is not an.accomplishment. She is a very fine girl. I have successfully trained her that her achievements are on an individual reward base. I applaud her efforts and set.reasonable goals. Every single teacher every single year has said what a delight my daughter was to teach in the comment section of her report card. This is what I get excited about and show her. That is a fine girl IMO.

I have had her tested to see if there were any learning disabilities which need to be addressed. I also have taken her for counseling and both times the counselors told me she is well adjusted. I wanted her to have the opportunity to discuss this very issue.

I don't love my daughter less because her IQ is not 167 like mine. Does that IQ make me a better person than my daughter who is so fine? BTW, with an IQ like mine, I am a SAHM which is how I believe I best serve Hashem.

eschaya

Wed, Feb 29 2012, 1:18 pm

Didn't have a chance to read the entire thread, but I'm wondering why this debate is being limited to Bais Yaakovs as opposed to the institution of childhood education as a whole. In theory, you are questioning the relevance and appropriateness of focusing on Chumash for girls. But learning calculus, the capitols of the countries in Africa, and the ability to say "the white horse is fat" in French are equally irrelevant except for a few individuals who will eventually pursue a career in these areas. Yet we still think it's important to give our children a wide ranging education and to develop their thinking and processing skills. Why is chumash any different?
I agree that halacha ought to be a larger focus, but as someone who thrives at school, I would have hated to go through 12 years of school with only the very basic, relevant subjects (ie; halacha, basic computation, English and Hebrew grammer and vocabulary, cooking) being focused on. You are right that perhaps grades are overly stressed in some areas, but personally, the satisfaction of learning to understand a Ramban, to calculate complex equations, to use educated vocabulary, to speak a foreign language is just as important as having the basic skills

↑ Merrymom ↓

Wed, Feb 29 2012, 2:55 pm

amother wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

If it was so laughably easy for you, why did you drop out as you stated on another thread?

Did I drop out? That's surely news to me. I may not have gone as far as I would have liked but I certainly never dropped out.

Btw, is this discussion about me? Rolling Eyes

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Feb 29 2012, 5:00 pm

Merrymom wrote:

amother wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

I speak hebrew fluently and I didn't until I was 19 years old. All those years of the dreaded milim and memorization really came in handy when I finally decided that I need to speak the language. Another thing, college was laughably easy for me after years of struggling in a frum school. Our brains are sharper, we're more focused, more hardworking, all because of this training that we get. In no way do I think it's a waste of time. The only girls whose self-esteem suffers from their lack of success in this area, is from those whose parents make her feel like a dummy. If you know that you were willing to put in the effort, that you would be successful then not being at the top of the class is really no big deal. Now if they were threatening to leave you back because of your chumash grades or refusing to acknowledge your presence in class because of your lazy attitude, that would be very different. Of course I do find alot of the subject matter to be unnecessary to girls but my biggest problem is not what they're learning in school, but what is expected of them outside of school. What kind of girls are we raising who are too busy with rambans to even learn how to cook or learn other necessary life skills. Erev y"t and erev shabbos I can have only the most minimal expectations of my daughtkners as they're too busy to help me.

I just wanted to add that not everyone who doesn't do well is lazy, it can be a learning disorder or just someone that isn't academically inclined. I really still think that what I said earlier still applies though. If the parents are proud of their daughter and discuss her grades in a positive way (seeing that she is trying her best) then that should not damage her self-esteem. Of course there always seems to be a nasty teacher, and you must sit down with your daughter and explain that not all people are completely sane even though they are the adult.

If it was so laughably easy for you, why did you drop out as you stated on another thread?

Did I drop out? That's surely news to me. I may not have gone as far as I would have liked but I certainly never dropped out.

Btw, is this discussion about me? Rolling Eyes

Do you have a college degree?

It is always about you. Are Shabbos robes proper? Merrymom's lost hers and the receipt.

Do Chassidish women sit in the back? Merrymom stalks them and knows who is married and which plain cars are not taxis.

Merrymom does not think older women should become Mothers.

I am trying to reconcile your statements. You said you did not finish college because the courses are irrelevant and the other students were not so bright. That was on a Deborah Feldman thread.

So do you have your degree?

↑ Merrymom ↓

Wed, Feb 29 2012, 11:18 pm

amother wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

amother wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

I speak hebrew fluently and I didn't until I was 19 years old. All those years of the dreaded milim and memorization really came in handy when I finally decided that I need to speak the language. Another thing, college was laughably easy for me after years of struggling in a frum school. Our brains are sharper, we're more focused, more hardworking, all because of this training that we get. In no way do I think it's a waste of time. The only girls whose self-esteem suffers from their lack of success in this area, is from those whose parents make her feel like a dummy. If you know that you were willing to put in the effort, that you would be successful then not being at the top of the class is really no big deal. Now if they were threatening to leave you back because of your chumash grades or refusing to acknowledge your presence in class because of your lazy attitude, that would be very different. Of course I do find alot of the subject matter to be unnecessary to girls but my biggest problem is not what they're learning in school, but what is expected of them outside of school. What kind of girls are we raising who are too busy with rambans to even learn how to cook or learn other necessary life skills. Erev y"t and erev shabbos I can have only the most minimal expectations of my daughtkners as they're too busy to help me.

I just wanted to add that not everyone who doesn't do well is lazy, it can be a learning disorder or just someone that isn't academically inclined. I really still think that what I said earlier still applies though. If the parents are proud of their daughter and discuss her grades in a positive way (seeing that she is trying her best) then that should not damage her self-esteem. Of course there always seems to be a nasty teacher, and you must sit down with your daughter and explain that not all people are completely sane even though they are the adult.

If it was so laughably easy for you, why did you drop out as you stated on another thread?

Did I drop out? That's surely news to me. I may not have gone as far as I would have liked but I certainly never dropped out.

Btw, is this discussion about me? Rolling Eyes

Do you have any other questions for me? What my degree is, what college I attended, how many kids I have, my bank statements maybe?

Don't read two sentences that I wrote and misquote me, take what I say out of context, and think you know all about my life. Whoever you are. There are various stages to getting an education which I understand you don't know anything about or you wouldn't be questioning me on something that is that simple. Not that it's any of your business. Do you want to know about my college education, pm me under your real name.

Last edited by Merrymom on Wed, Feb 29 2012, 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Feb 29 2012, 11:39 pm

One additional point that I didn't see mentioned-

Music appreciation used to be (maybe it still is?) a required course in many colleges. The idea was that even people who don't play instruments, don't compose, and aren't overly musical, should still appreciate to some extent the nuances that make up good music. Understanding some of the complexity of music can make the difference between shrugging and saying "nice song", and appreciating a brilliant melody. (I'm not musical, excuse whatever is inapplicable)

If we want our girls to truly have a chashivus for Torah, how can we do that without teaching them some of its complexity? Hundreds of yahadus lessons about chashivus haTorah can't compare to learning and delving into an inyan in Chumash with meforshim. And just as noone who took a music appreciation course would consider themselves a composer, even the most rigorous BY education should open they eyes of the girls to how much there is out there, and how deep and never-ending Torah is. Do we want our girls to be like the apocryphal congregant who was puzzled to see his Rabbi learning because he had graduated already? That's one of the hashkafah lessons I would most want imparted to my daughters, and this is the best way to internalize it (this can cross-reference w/ the seminary thread about learning mussar, and those who say that Torah itself is all the mussar/hashkafah needed)

↑ TranquilityAndPeace

Thu, Mar 01 2012, 12:24 am

chavamom wrote:

Very much on topic:
http://www.raisingsmallsouls.c......html

The movie is worth watching and the entire site is good and pertains largely to this topic.

That's my site; thanks for the link chavamom:)

If a teacher can take chumash, navi, or other Judaic subject and make it INTERESTING and RELEVANT to the vast majority of students, then this entire conversation would not be necessary. As I said in a previous post, take a few minutes to watch Rebbitzen Heller teach the obscure sefer of Divrei Hayamim on naaleh.com. She makes the ancient concepts come to life, and I finish her shiurim with inspiration about things that I need to do right now like drive carpool and clean the kitchen.

OTOH, when teachers do not make the material INTERESTING and RELEVANT, that's when you get lots of women wondering if Bais Yaakov is a waste of time. It's all in the way the material is presented.

I once read that Robert Kyosaki (sp?), author of the Rich Dad series of books said; "Kids take years and years of math in elementary and high school. At the end, they cannot even tell you if it's cheaper to buy or lease a car - the practical application of math in everyday life!" It's the same issue in Judaic studies and math - most teachers don't make the subject matter INTERESTING and RELEVANT so students are left feeling that they wasted years of time memorizing useless information.

↑ morahtikvah

Thu, Mar 01 2012, 1:34 am

amother wrote:

↑ ora_43 ↓

Thu, Mar 01 2012, 4:38 am

Frenchfry wrote:

A watered down kodesh curriculum will hurt noone with the exception of some halacha and yehadus classes

It will hurt all the girls who find the current kodesh curriculum interesting and at their academic level.

If the answer to some students having trouble with the material is aiming for the lowest common denominator so that no student is having trouble, then you're going to lose the bright students who will remember high school as boring and a complete waste of time.

I agree that people shouldn't be judged based on their academic ability. But not that schools should aim to make academic ability irrelevant.

↑ jelly belly ↓

Thu, Mar 01 2012, 8:31 am

amother wrote:

Why not make the very challenging classes extra curricular?

Girls can take mandatory classes that are necessary for their yiddeshkeit and all their limudei chol classes on school. After a shorter school day they can go to optional extra curricular activities, some of which can be chumash or navi beiyun.

As an added bonus, it'll keep tuition costs down.

I hope this is a joke. What kind of message does this send? How can you place a greater emphasis on secular subjects than religious subjects? And to an earlier amother- I hope that our gedolim understand that if so many girls today are attending college and seeking higher secular ed, their religious knowledge should be advanced as well.

If you want vocational schools where academic standards are lower for both secular and religious subjects, great. Go for it. But don't cut religious studies while maintaining the same high expectations for secular studies.

↑ ora_43

Thu, Mar 01 2012, 8:38 am

amother wrote:

"Challenging" isn't just a description of the subject matter itself, it's also a way of teaching the class.

You can have a challenging Chumash class or halacha class, or a non-challenging Chumash or halacha class. Etc.

Making both the material and the teaching style non-challenging would leave some students bored during the school day, which is still a problem even if they would be allowed to take an interesting class later. Making the material non-challenging but teaching style challenging - wouldn't address the problem of slower students having trouble keeping up.