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-> Teachers' Room
September June
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 Tue, Feb 28 2012, 9:19 pm
| AlwaysGrateful wrote: | | ora_43 wrote: | | I agree with Fox that sports and drama and the like can be a great opportunity for some kids. OTOH, since the goal of school is learning the academic subjects and sports are just an extra, it makes sense to me that they're used as incentives to learning and not as a given (keep up a 70 average and you can stay on the soccer team). As long as the standards aren't too high. |
One other caveat besides this one. It's not just a matter of "these girls can't make the time commitment." I've worked with some of these "struggling" girls, and many of them have an attitude of "let's get off as much time as possible for this." So they'll say they need several periods off to deal with yearbook, dance for production, whatever. They completely take advantage. If they're only in charge of a small section of an event, there are at least other girls who know what they're doing. But no one knows what the head of production is doing, or if they reallyneed the time that they say they need. You have to trust them. And many of these girls don't take academics seriously anyway, so they'd just be fudging their times to get off of work.
I know I sound cynical, and I normally am not. But I've worked with probably a dozen girls on each side of the spectrum in recent years, and there's a real difference in their respect for authority, MOST of the time. There are exceptions to the rule, and it's a shame for them. But I see why the schools are going based on what most girls are like...because those stereotypes, in many many cases, are true. |
I agree.
When I was in HS, my principal tried motivating a "struggling" student by giving her an important school job.
Guess what happened?
The strong student she was paired with did practically everything while the "struggling" student neglected her job the same way she neglected her studies. It made the other student's job much more difficult and IMO was really unfair to her.
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Fox
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Tue, Feb 28 2012, 9:23 pm
| AlwaysGrateful wrote: | | But I've worked with probably a dozen girls on each side of the spectrum in recent years, and there's a real difference in their respect for authority, MOST of the time. |
This is another area where I strongly feel that many Jewish schools -- particularly BY schools -- need to re-examine how they do things.
It's a circular problem: only a handful of teachers have the kind of natural command presence that allows them to control a class with little effort. However, most young women who begin their teaching careers at a BY school will be given little, if any, real training in how to effectively manage a classroom.
The principal and older teachers complain about how badly students behave nowadays, but no one lifts a finger to adequately train and supervise teachers so that they can be more effective. Nor does anyone seem to think about why certain students might lack respect for authority and what can be done about it.
This is the number one reason I did not continue to teach limudei chol at a BY. Too many teachers seemed to expect classes to control themselves. Their only technique was to yell at the students until someone crossed an invisible line, and then send the malefactor to the principal for punishment. And then everyone complained about how chutzpadik the students were; what bad parenting they received; and how things used to be better. It was a negative atmosphere that seemed to spiral further downward each day.
Lions don't need to roar. A lion who roars a lot is making it clear that he's not the top lion in the pride. And even the cubs know that.
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Frenchfry
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Tue, Feb 28 2012, 10:30 pm
Sorry that you had that experience fox, but I don't find that at all where I work. Here the discipline is definitely proactive as opposed to reactive.
Um...what was the message in the cursive writing post. Was it an allusion to something?
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amother
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Wed, Feb 29 2012, 8:27 am
| amother wrote: | Again, I ask the question,
How many of us know of GO presidents, play heads, or any other leadership role that was given to a girl who didn't succeed in limudei kodesh???
Does the silence speak for itself? What have we created here? |
This hurts me so badly. I was and still am B"H a very talented person. Not to brag, just to explain. I can make up beautiful songs, I am extremely artistic and creative. I have fantastic ideas and know how to have fun. I was popular in school. I was desperate for the title of G.O. Head or Play head. I had so much to offer. Year after year I hoped and dreamed. I don't think the principals or teachers ever even bat an eyelash in my direction. My grades were average and below average. I was not a great student. I did not have the head for memorizing and math. I failed math, history, and historia - I just couldn't do it.
But hte teachers saw a bright, capable person who just wasn't "reaching her potential". I wasn't "putting in enough effort". I was so frum in high school, always taking on more chumras, trying to always do the the right thing to fit in. I spent my WHOLE 4 years in high school desperately trying to get approval from my teachers whom I loved. I was the one who loved high school and everything about it. Why? B/c I saw my teachers as fabulous role models and amazing people to gain a deep close connection to.
It was only a few years out of high school that I I realized how nebech I was. It was all out of my reach b/c I didn't get good grades. All the bitterness and ressentment came back in pieces - all the detention I served b/c I couldn't sit in the classes, the verbal abuse that I suffered from teachers IN PUBLIC, the rejection of ever acquiring a creative role b/c I "wasn't smart enough", the humiliation of the principal proclaiming me as ADHD and "prescribing" me Ritalin b/c I was out of class during Math so often, all the millions and horus of tears that I shed in the principal's office that I couldnt' remember the names and dates - I was trying but couldn't do it (and the principal would nod sadly and then send me back to class without really paying attention to what I was saying.)
My sister applied for high schools a few years ago and automatically, I told her she should consider Bais Yaakov, since the teachers were amazing, yadada. Then the more I thought about it, the more I realized how much they stifled me. They had a mold to fill and I wasn't the right shape or size. I was never good enough, my talents and positive attributes were never recognized. She ended up going to a more modern school that puts more focus on practical day to day living and English academics and her hashkafos are more solidified than ever. She is thriving.
What was I left with? A horrible self esteem, self doubt, hurt, resentment, bitterness, and more. I dropped all those "chumras" since they don't really matter now.
And the best part? Not only did I not ever get to express my shining side in high school, I didn't even come out of there with a real education. I barely remember the parsha, I barely remember how to read rashi. Halacha? I don't remember a thing from the once a week it was taught to us.
If they were going to shove all that down my throat, you would think I would end up with at least a good education. But no. B"H, I am happily married with amazing kids. I am a natural mother at heart, although I stink at cleaning, financing, budgeting, and organizing.
So Thank you, Hashem, for my amazing husband and kids. B/c that is all I gained from my life so far, and Bais Yaakov has nothing to do with it.
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amother
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Wed, Feb 29 2012, 9:01 am
OP again.
Amother, your post brought me to tears, as well as legitamized what I've been harping on. I only daven that as a teacher I can take the mussar you've just given and use it for the toeles of my students.
I think every high school principal should be given a copy
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amother
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Wed, Feb 29 2012, 9:07 am
My heart is with you, and I am glad that Hashem has blessed you now.
What will you do to prevent this from happening to your children?
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willow
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Wed, Feb 29 2012, 10:22 am
| jelly belly wrote: | | amother wrote: | Again, I ask the question,
How many of us know of GO presidents, play heads, or any other leadership role that was given to a girl who didn't succeed in limudei kodesh???
Does the silence speak for itself? What have we created here? |
In my class, the senior year GO pres was a student who was weak academically. It wasn't anything people thought twice about. |
I think that is very very rare. In my HS they were explicit about it having to be the strong academic ones as well as the other requirements .
This also applied to any head of anything. Though I do have to admit they were great about parts in plays and dance that went to talent.
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amother
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Wed, Feb 29 2012, 10:32 am
| amother wrote: | OP again.
Amother, your post brought me to tears, as well as legitamized what I've been harping on. I only daven that as a teacher I can take the mussar you've just given and use it for the toeles of my students.
I think every high school principal should be given a copy |
The amother with the recent long post: Thank you, I really appreciate that, OP. However, even if you would give to my high school, they would say it's just me. They wouldn't be able to recognize the problem within themselves. But it's a nice thought.
It is such a great school with so much to offer, and yes, there are a lot of good times that I miss about it. But it is very scary to me to think of how many girls who have gone to that school that have gone off the derech, and I have no doubt that their "hashkafa" had a big role in it. At least 5 that I can think of since I graduated 6 years ago.
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Merrymom
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Wed, Feb 29 2012, 10:38 am
I speak hebrew fluently and I didn't until I was 19 years old. All those years of the dreaded milim and memorization really came in handy when I finally decided that I need to speak the language. Another thing, college was laughably easy for me after years of struggling in a frum school. Our brains are sharper, we're more focused, more hardworking, all because of this training that we get. In no way do I think it's a waste of time. The only girls whose self-esteem suffers from their lack of success in this area, is from those whose parents make her feel like a dummy. If you know that you were willing to put in the effort, that you would be successful then not being at the top of the class is really no big deal. Now if they were threatening to leave you back because of your chumash grades or refusing to acknowledge your presence in class because of your lazy attitude, that would be very different. Of course I do find alot of the subject matter to be unnecessary to girls but my biggest problem is not what they're learning in school, but what is expected of them outside of school. What kind of girls are we raising who are too busy with rambans to even learn how to cook or learn other necessary life skills. Erev y"t and erev shabbos I can have only the most minimal expectations of my daughters as they're too busy to help me.
I just wanted to add that not everyone who doesn't do well is lazy, it can be a learning disorder or just someone that isn't academically inclined. I really still think that what I said earlier still applies though. If the parents are proud of their daughter and discuss her grades in a positive way (seeing that she is trying her best) then that should not damage her self-esteem. Of course there always seems to be a nasty teacher, and you must sit down with your daughter and explain that not all people are completely sane even though they are the adult.
Last edited by Merrymom on Wed, Feb 29 2012, 10:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
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Wed, Feb 29 2012, 10:45 am
| amother wrote: | | Frenchfry wrote: | | Amother, would you be so glad that the schools were catering to the brighter girls if your DD weren't one of them? I was also one of the brighter girls and loved my LK classes, but now I see very little relevance that they have in my life, with the exception of teaching. I think in my seventh grade class, for every two girls who are enjoying the stimulation there are at least three who are frustrated, and worst of all, suffereng socially b/c they think others see them as "dumb". All for what purpose???? |
I think you are referring to me. My daughter is not a gifted child. She has been in remedial classes and has had tutors throughout her life. If she absorbs a small precentage of what is offered and in turn can raise her daughters to aspire to learn to the level Hashem fashioned them, I will feel my tuition is well spent. I don't want the schools dummied down. I want students like my daughter to strive. If my daughter comes home with a "C" and she did her best, I am proud. I don't need her to make "A"s so her alf esteem is improved.
Her self esteem is just fine. She is eidle and has a strong grounding. I could not do this without BY and the dedicated teachers. |
Maybe you don't mind if she gets a C but did you ever ask her how she feels?
I failed through school and have some learning disabilities. It killed my self esteem. Even now I have a job and family, it still haunts me.
And yes I went to a very prestigious BY.
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Fox
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Wed, Feb 29 2012, 10:47 am
To the Amother at 7:27, thank you for such a beautiful post. It's obvious they should have encouraged your writing talent, as well. I printed out your post and gave it to one of my DDs. She began crying and said, "I always thought it was me. But it wasn't just me, was it?"
Because many imamothers know me IRL, let me say that two of my DDs have had a wonderful experience and love it. My DD who had a terrible experience has never been an easy child. Once, when pressed repeatedly by a teacher about how "bad" my DD was, I finally exploded and said, "Fine. But I lost the receipt -- the hospital won't take her back."
So again, when the system works, it works. When it doesn't work, however, no one seems to care.
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Ruchel
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Wed, Feb 29 2012, 10:47 am
By me C is passing grade. I felt totally fine having a C especially in a course I wasn't good in.
I never connected bad grades (under C) I had in maths for example with my self esteem. I was bad at maths, ok, so what. No one is gifted or even just decent at everything.
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amother
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Wed, Feb 29 2012, 10:49 am
| Ruchel wrote: | By me C is passing grade. I felt totally fine having a C especially in a course I wasn't good in.
I never connected bad grades (under C) I had in maths for example with my self esteem. I was bad at maths, ok, so what. No one is gifted or even just decent at everything. |
Do you even know what a learning disability is?!?! Sitting in a classroom and not understanding or being able to do the work??
And its not just in one subject!!
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morahtikvah
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Wed, Feb 29 2012, 11:00 am
[/quote]
Do you even know what a learning disability is?!?! Sitting in a classroom and not understanding or being able to do the work??
And its not just in one subject!![/quote]
This is not a nice way to speak.
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Ruchel
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Wed, Feb 29 2012, 11:02 am
I was answering to the C thing.
And for me also it wasn't just one subject. Depending on year, I had an average under passing grade in: maths, sports, physics/chemistry, geometry... many many kids re-did a year at least once. Yes, most of us have sat in a classroom and not understood. Last time it happened to me it was in university, in Chomsky linguistics. I just do not understand it. I ended with a 3 average, which is what... F? Pitifully close to the minimum, zero. I was the worst or second worst grade. I also have a block with reading Hebrew.
It shouldn't affect one's self esteem, and a G-d given disability even less than laziness that could be worked on.
Indeed not Mora Tikva, but when one is amother it's just so easy.
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amother
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Wed, Feb 29 2012, 11:13 am
Glad my kids go to a small school so everyone has to get involved, and my poor student got to be drama head.
Looking back, some very average students went on to get advanced degrees, and some of us merit scholars never finished college. Go figure.
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Ruchel
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Wed, Feb 29 2012, 11:21 am
Oh I totally agree.
If you just upgrade your work a bit, you can go on to have a PhD will staying with a passing grade! and if you are burned out from HS you can fail university or even not graduate HS.
I also agree about small classes. I had classes between 36 and 40 kids in middle and high school. In dd's school they have about 5 girls or something  Its very "heimish" familial, and allows the teacher to put into every kid and no one can slack and sleep 
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Frenchfry
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Wed, Feb 29 2012, 11:37 am
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So what as mothers, can we do about this?
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Frenchfry
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Wed, Feb 29 2012, 11:37 am
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So what as mothers, can we do about this?
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amother
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Wed, Feb 29 2012, 11:58 am
| Frenchfry wrote: | | So what as mothers, can we do about this? |
Get your child all the help possible. They should have a good feeling about their learning and school. Not that "pit in their stomache, I feel like I am going to throw up, looking at a book or talking about school makes me cry" feeling.
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