And if we remember our rock opera plot lines (such as they were), Tommy ran a Holiday Camp! (Before the whole thing fell apart in a massive way, leaving our protagonist singing "See me, feel me, touch me, heal me" and leaving music fans with two songs called "We're Not Gonna Take It". (Did you find that twisted, sisters?)
I loved Twisted Sister.
Uncle Ernie the pedophile ran the camp at the beginning. Which should be sufficient proof that not only is camp not a necessity, its a bad thing.
Although, of course, Tommy runs a camp at the end, too. Bad ending. Hmmmm.
New thread. No one should send their kids to camp. Ever.
OMG, Uncle Ernie! But Mama was no bargain, either.
FS, if only it were that easy. Because all the same rules come into play: how to shlep from one house to another with 7 kids under 5 and no vehicle. It's hot out. It still leaves all the other kids at home. Etc. It won't work. The mothers WANT and NEED to have the kids out of the house, for whatever reasons. There are women here (gryp?) who could probably make it work but for a lot of others it's just to darn overwhelming.
Taking care of the kids after a certain age, in certain circles is NOT seen as the mother's job, even a SAHM. She's there for procreation, shopping, cooking, straightening up (hopefully before and after the cleaning lady's day) etc. NOT for entertaining the children.
Just how it is.
As long as it's not on my cheshbon, yalla - who cares.
If I were approached to donate to the cause, I'd laugh them into the next century, which is my prerogative.
As a matter of fact, I belonged to such co-ops during certain periods of my mothering days. It's a great concept, but everyone has to be on the same page.
Actually the reason it wouldn't work is because most mothers in my community are working. I can not think of 30 SAHM's off the top of my head. Now if you had said 30 nannies, maybe.
Secondly, I don't send my kids just anywhere. I do not trust the level of supervision many mothers think is okay. That level is usually the attitude of: you'll live, whatever happens.
Thirdly, generally children don't like to go to a place where the Morah is different every day. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who can talk about the attachment between a child and the same Morah/Rebbi he goes to day in and day out.
Fourthly, with different people planning different days, I can see a nightmare in organization of this kind of "camp." No thank you.
Fifthly, I don't understand why anyone would be proud to laugh at someone asking for tzedaka. Is that considered a higher madreiga than those who take tzedaka, in the MO world?
What is so hard to understand that a mother has enough to do in a 24 hour day, and that's without her kids home?
Oops, how'd I forget this one. 30 mothers means, let's say an average of 3 children each = 90 kids. Two mothers and 90 kids. I guess that would be one mother for all the girls and one for all the boys. Can this scenario get any more ridiculous?
And if we remember our rock opera plot lines (such as they were), Tommy ran a Holiday Camp! (Before the whole thing fell apart in a massive way, leaving our protagonist singing "See me, feel me, touch me, heal me" and leaving music fans with two songs called "We're Not Gonna Take It". (Did you find that twisted, sisters?)
I loved Twisted Sister.
Uncle Ernie the pedophile ran the camp at the beginning. Which should be sufficient proof that not only is camp not a necessity, its a bad thing.
Although, of course, Tommy runs a camp at the end, too. Bad ending. Hmmmm.
New thread. No one should send their kids to camp. Ever.
OMG, Uncle Ernie! But Mama was no bargain, either.
What. She thought Capt. Walker was dead. You expected her to wait forever? And I'm sure she was worth dying for.
Oops, how'd I forget this one. 30 mothers means, let's say an average of 3 children each = 90 kids. Two mothers and 90 kids. I guess that would be one mother for all the girls and one for all the boys. Can this scenario get any more ridiculous?
So you get SIX moms to work each day. Probably making it a lower adult-kid ration than at most camps. And each mom works at the camp once a week.
And if we remember our rock opera plot lines (such as they were), Tommy ran a Holiday Camp! (Before the whole thing fell apart in a massive way, leaving our protagonist singing "See me, feel me, touch me, heal me" and leaving music fans with two songs called "We're Not Gonna Take It". (Did you find that twisted, sisters?)
I loved Twisted Sister.
Uncle Ernie the pedophile ran the camp at the beginning. Which should be sufficient proof that not only is camp not a necessity, its a bad thing.
Although, of course, Tommy runs a camp at the end, too. Bad ending. Hmmmm.
New thread. No one should send their kids to camp. Ever.
OMG, Uncle Ernie! But Mama was no bargain, either.
What. She thought Capt. Walker was dead. You expected her to wait forever? And I'm sure she was worth dying for.
BTW, did you know the play version was different from the movie version? Movie, dad dies, play new hubby dies.
I always wondered about the stigma that attached to the mom. She got a letter announcing his death? She was suppose to wear widows weeds forever?
Are we talking about the movie-rock opera Tommy?
I remember its debut here in EY and it was the only movie I have ever walked out of in my entire life. A bunch of us from Sem went to see it on the sly and ugh! After five minutes I told them if they wanted to they could stay but I was leaving!!! I went outside, bought myself a kartiv (ices) to cheer myself up and waited TWO WHOLE HOURS for them to come out of that crazy movie with the crazy music.
I never went in for rock. Not schock Rock, not real rock. My dh still laughs at me that I think that Lippa is "too daring".
Yeah, a real old fashioned conservative I am in some of my tastes.
Back to camp, as Barbara says, it's doable if one really needs camp and this is the only alternative.
Gryp get off your anti-MO horse.
There are people in every society who have gehokte zurris suddenly and find themselves in a horrible situation where they need temporary assistance for their real necessities. It can happen to MO, it can happen to Gentiles, it can happen to anyone.
BUT. You know quite well what I am talking about. No one is LAUGHING at anyone who is taking zedoko. What I am is INCREDULOUS that there are people who make choices, milechaschila, where they know that they will not be able to afford a certain lifestyle if they make certain choices, and nevertheless MAKE those choices knowing and well expecting that they will have to live off zedoko for a good part of their lives.
THAT in my opinion is beyond the pale. I understand people who make those choices - which may not be mine but that's not the issue here - and live with the consequences and pay the price for their choice. Personal and financial. that's fine. That's their business.
BUT in the case of people who keep on having kids they can't afford to feed and clothe without gemachs, which is another way of saying zedoko, and people who among other things insist that need X, Y, and Z for their kids while they knowingly brought those children into the world planning milechaschila to have other people pay for their upkeep....
or...women who decide to be SAHMS either because they believe it is for their children's good to have mothers home full time or because they are having closely spaced children and it isn't feasable for them to pay for childcare with what they are capable of earning as they weren't trained for a high paying job...and then come and say "camp (or other things lke that) is a necessity and I need it for my sanity to have them out of the house"...so I am collecting money or turning to an organization that will collect money to send my child to camp...
Well lady, I find that tremendous chutzpa.
Because in my world you make your choice and then you pay your price. It's called responsibility. And I call relying milechaschila on zedoko irresponsibility.
And that is what this thread was all about. Not about mothers who can afford to pay for children to go to camp. But for those who can't and who claim that they need zekodo for it so that they can have time to....whatever....other than care for their children.
It is a type of mindset that I have only seen among two basic groups. Certain groups of charedi women, and certain groups of ethnic minority poor (usually single) mothers when I used to live in america. I don't have contact with such groups (the second) today, but I knew them years ago.
I don't ever remember coming across this attitude of "oh go ahead and do what you want and someone else will pay" among either the working middle class charedim that I knew in America, among the MO or among any other Jewish or non Jewish group other than those I mentioned. Maybe they exist and I just don't know any. But I also think it's a tremendous chutzpa if we are talking about Yidden, to plan one's life around taking zedoko milechaschila.
Note - I am NOT talking about someone who did plan, did do his/her hishtadlus both religiously and practically and then for some reason suddenly fell on terribly hard times. Although I believe that if that happens one should seriously example one's priorities to take help only for the absolute hard core necessities. and I don't see camp as one of them if you are a SAHM of any kind. You just cope. Even badly. It's part of life.
So my DH and I went on a 2-day vacation alone. It was great. When we got back on Thursday, the kids being home suddenly felt overwhelming. Just before Shaboos, I kind of lost it. And here I was doing so well in the post-day camp weeks.
This would put no camp being okay at a limit of 4 weeks of vacation.
Tomorrow we are going on a family trip for a few days. Hopefully that should give everyone a change of scenery and be a good idea. That is, if we don't cancel because of missles in nearby areas. So far we are going (the missles are only on the way there, but we can take an alternate route if tomorrow looks too active). Hashem yishmor.
Good luck Isramom. But why is is so overwhelming suddenly to have the kids home? Maybe your expectations of what has to be done with them are a bit high?
...maybe just let them chill out, make a mess, and play. Are any of them the kind that they are about to trash the entire house? ....could I suggest that it might be if you feel you are "losing it" that the problem is not the kids but your mindset? Do you feel that they need activities all the time? Why....
I don't get how people don't realize that summer is no fun, it's hot, it's boring for the kids and they act up. So? Big deal. It's all part and parcel of kids. They act up, make a mess, hit each other, you separate them turn the hose on them, they make up, you give them lunch. You repeat after lunch. You give them supper, you give the older ones a few chores to do, you put the younger ones into a bath, and you put them to bed and let the older ones fend for themselves. And you count the days until the summer is over. That's what everyone always did...
What is wrong with that? Sounds quite normal to me. If you haven't set up a list of set jobs that everyone has to do on erev shabbos and they are bickering, it's not being "dictatorial" to assign jobs but rather being a good and efficient administrator.
Are you upset because you yelled at them? Well here's one for you. Do they listen if you DONT yell? Some kids just tune out until a parent, usually a mother, reaches a certain decibel. I'm not kidding. The only way to change that is to talk to them about it and then to pattern them into listening to you without yelling.
Are you upset because you had to tell them what to do? That they didn't realize it on their own? Well no kids usually WANT to help on their own unless they are used to it as part of their routine. It's normal to "give orders". You are the officer, they are the privates. Until they realize that a family and a home is a joint effort, it's considered part of a "sidrat chinuch" just like in the army.
[quote="freidasima"]Are we talking about the movie-rock opera Tommy?
I remember its debut here in EY and it was the only movie I have ever walked out of in my entire life. A bunch of us from Sem went to see it on the sly and ugh! After five minutes I told them if they wanted to they could stay but I was leaving!!! I went outside, bought myself a kartiv (ices) to cheer myself up and waited TWO WHOLE HOURS for them to come out of that crazy movie with the crazy music.
/quote]
Well, you might have noticed that most of the audience was in poodle skirts and pearls (no running, ducking emoticon, huh....)
Gryp, I'm feeling like an old fogey. Apparently the under 40 crowd hasn't seen some form of round robin in action. Yes, there are the mega groups, but the way we did it was generally five kids, different families for every day of the week. Yes, it helps if you're not in the city so you can walk/drive (this was the era before booster seats for 4 year olds, maybe even 3 year olds) to a park, etc. And I guess I am more easygoing. It happened that any mother who was actually willing to do it was someone under whose care I didn't have qualms about putting my kids.
What is so hard to understand that a mother has enough to do in a 24 hour day, and that's without her kids home?
Nothing wrong with that but people who feel that way should not call themselves SAHMs. Because they are not. They are housewives, non-working women or ladies of leisure.
Didn't we conclude 1000 pages ago that a SAHM's job is not only to take care of her kids but also to make sure the house is kept clean and functional?
Would it make sense that if I had 5 kids in school during the year and two at home I would be a SAHM, but in the summer when the 5 go to camp and I have two at home, I'm suddenly a lady of leisure? Why would I be a housewife when I spend all day taking care of the 2 at home and not much time upkeeping the house?
PinkFridge- 5 kids in all? Maybe they were all only children or their mother was involved in a bunch of round robins, which I assume would fill her week pretty fast, which would be the opposite of why she joined in the first place.
I actually asked my friends (forgive me please, friends, for bringing this on here) in the beginning of the summer if we could plan to get together with our kids a few times a week. Two friends had 5 children each to bring and two others had 2 each. I can't see how making a group of just 5 kids would be worth it for a SAHM.
So my DH and I went on a 2-day vacation alone. It was great. When we got back on Thursday, the kids being home suddenly felt overwhelming. Just before Shaboos, I kind of lost it. And here I was doing so well in the post-day camp weeks.
This would put no camp being okay at a limit of 4 weeks of vacation.
Tomorrow we are going on a family trip for a few days. Hopefully that should give everyone a change of scenery and be a good idea. That is, if we don't cancel because of missles in nearby areas. So far we are going (the missles are only on the way there, but we can take an alternate route if tomorrow looks too active). Hashem yishmor.
Hope the trip is wonderful Stay safe. I've been worried about all the Israelis.
It makes perfect sense to me that you were overwhelmed when you came back. Before that, you had your groove on. You had a rhythm. When you got away for a few days, you let your guard down and relaxed, and, well, things looked overwhelming at first.
We and our group have been jeeping, touring craters, eating barbeque, watching Shwekey DVDs, feeding llamas, swimming...it's like whole families are in camp!
I'm worried about the East Coast Americans and Canadians.
I loved Twisted Sister.
