Wow putting platters of food on the table shows how well to do people are! Because when you are frugal you plate the food to make sure you have enough for each eater and that's it. That's how Israelis I know live and lived for years and not only Israelis. Frugal people.
So interesting. The only two people that I know that serve food as opposed to platter of food on the table, one is a holocaust survivor, well in to her 90s and the other is a single mother, in her 70s, for the last, at least 50 years, and had to live very frugally. So maybe you have something there FS, but I have friends who have to be frugal and they dont serve the food. It is put on to a platter and people take what they want. That is the only way that I have seen things at a table.
I see many people bringing "already served" dishes to family or guests. Some of them are VERY very rich. It avoids dirtying a plate, and it avoids some kids jumping on the food and not leaving enough, or taking more than they can finish!
Serving men first or boys first. Definitely. I remember being taught by my mother to serve the men first unless they were frei in which case you served the women first. Lesson in table ettiquite yet in the 60s in America. I remember having big rabbonim at my parent's table for various occasions from all over the world, and many of them would - when being served first - turn to their wives to serve HER first, but they as rabbonim were given first honor.
What do you do with a five year old boy and an 18 year old girl? Of course you serve the girl first. But when it's an 18 year old boy and a 20 year old girl, it really depended on how frum they were. The frummer they were, the boy got first. Always. The more "modern" they were, then "ladies first" made inroads.
WOW, that is really all I can say. Im my life I never heard of anything so sad. You serve people at your table based on religiosity? Thats really terrible and demeaning.
Serving men first or boys first. Definitely. I remember being taught by my mother to serve the men first unless they were frei in which case you served the women first. Lesson in table ettiquite yet in the 60s in America. I remember having big rabbonim at my parent's table for various occasions from all over the world, and many of them would - when being served first - turn to their wives to serve HER first, but they as rabbonim were given first honor.
What do you do with a five year old boy and an 18 year old girl? Of course you serve the girl first. But when it's an 18 year old boy and a 20 year old girl, it really depended on how frum they were. The frummer they were, the boy got first. Always. The more "modern" they were, then "ladies first" made inroads.
WOW, that is really all I can say. Im my life I never heard of anything so sad. You serve people at your table based on religiosity? Thats really terrible and demeaning.
Read it again. The last paragraph is not describing what she does in her home, she is talking about her observations in other families.
Serving men first or boys first. Definitely. I remember being taught by my mother to serve the men first unless they were frei in which case you served the women first. Lesson in table ettiquite yet in the 60s in America. I remember having big rabbonim at my parent's table for various occasions from all over the world, and many of them would - when being served first - turn to their wives to serve HER first, but they as rabbonim were given first honor.
What do you do with a five year old boy and an 18 year old girl? Of course you serve the girl first. But when it's an 18 year old boy and a 20 year old girl, it really depended on how frum they were. The frummer they were, the boy got first. Always. The more "modern" they were, then "ladies first" made inroads.
WOW, that is really all I can say. Im my life I never heard of anything so sad. You serve people at your table based on religiosity? Thats really terrible and demeaning.
Read it again. The last paragraph is not describing what she does in her home, she is talking about her observations in other families.
Fine, either way, then it is sad for those families. What a sad way to have a household.
Serving men first or boys first. Definitely. I remember being taught by my mother to serve the men first unless they were frei in which case you served the women first. Lesson in table ettiquite yet in the 60s in America. I remember having big rabbonim at my parent's table for various occasions from all over the world, and many of them would - when being served first - turn to their wives to serve HER first, but they as rabbonim were given first honor.
What do you do with a five year old boy and an 18 year old girl? Of course you serve the girl first. But when it's an 18 year old boy and a 20 year old girl, it really depended on how frum they were. The frummer they were, the boy got first. Always. The more "modern" they were, then "ladies first" made inroads.
WOW, that is really all I can say. Im my life I never heard of anything so sad. You serve people at your table based on religiosity? Thats really terrible and demeaning.
Read it again. The last paragraph is not describing what she does in her home, she is talking about her observations in other families.
Fine, either way, then it is sad for those families. What a sad way to have a household.
As I understand it, FS is saying that in frum homes it was common to see boys served first. In less religious homes, it was common to have a women first attitude. No discrimination between more or less religious within the same home.
Serving men first or boys first. Definitely. I remember being taught by my mother to serve the men first unless they were frei in which case you served the women first. Lesson in table ettiquite yet in the 60s in America. I remember having big rabbonim at my parent's table for various occasions from all over the world, and many of them would - when being served first - turn to their wives to serve HER first, but they as rabbonim were given first honor.
What do you do with a five year old boy and an 18 year old girl? Of course you serve the girl first. But when it's an 18 year old boy and a 20 year old girl, it really depended on how frum they were. The frummer they were, the boy got first. Always. The more "modern" they were, then "ladies first" made inroads.
WOW, that is really all I can say. Im my life I never heard of anything so sad. You serve people at your table based on religiosity? Thats really terrible and demeaning.
that's not how I read it...I think she meant that the more secular a person is, the mentality is "ladies first" as opposed to a more right wing approach is "serve the men first"
I can see how you are reading it negatively, though.
Personally, I don't make a blanket "men first", either. If there is a mix of old and young, I would sooner do old vs young than men vs women... (ie my grandmother before my uncle...)
Saw, there is absolutely no halochic problem with a woman giving a man a ring or any other present under the chuppah. It is NOT a kinyan and it has to be said out loud that it is a present and NOT a kinyan and it can't be done at any time during the halochic part of a service. The rabbonim who say you can't are saying that men wearing wedding rings are following a non jewish custom and they shouldn't, which is how I was brought up BTW unlike my husband who is third generation american and in his family they did wear... Ask your rov directly about it if you want. Ask him whether a bride is permitted to give her groom a present, including a ring, after the kesuba is read and after the sheva brochos but before stepping on the glass, if it is announced that "the kallah has bought a present for her chossen as a token of her love and wants to present it to him, this is a present and not a kinyan or anything else", whether THAT is halochically posul and what their asmachta (reasoning and source) is.
FS, I'm a little stupefied by your post. Knowing nothing about the Rav who gave the psak you make that claim?
Yes, our Rabbi holds that a woman giving the man a ring or any other gift during the wedding ceremony, up to and including the yichud room is a problem. I am MO, and the Rabbi is a MO Rabbi. Most of the men I know wear wedding bands. We are not talking about a charedi crowd.
And I am not the only friend of mine who was told that. Many of my friends (who asked) were told the same thing. Giving the man a ring under the chupah or in the yichud room presents problems. We were also told it was better to wait until after sheva brachot so it wouldn't be part of the actual wedding at all.
I'm sorry if you or your rabbonim disagree with it, but that doesn't make my Rabbi wrong, nor against my husband wearing a wedding band. I am talking about a psak we recieved directly from our Rabbi in response to our wedding. I am not talking in theory or what we've heard etc, etc, etc.
I'm glad I don't need to implement ridiculous forms of "respect" and "fear" with my kids. My mother didn't do that with us and we love and respect her.
I don't need to fear her.
And if I ever fear my husband, I would ask for a divorce.
As to serving - in most households I've seen, the food starts with the most distinguished (usually meaning elderly) guests and then goes around the table. It would be ridiculous to move food around and around and around....
I'm glad I don't need to implement ridiculous forms of "respect" and "fear" with my kids. My mother didn't do that with us and we love and respect her.
I don't need to fear her.
And if I ever fear my husband, I would ask for a divorce.
Add that to reasons why I am "not frum"
Don't laugh saw, I feared my mother like a nightmare and I loved my father with all my heart. And we're frum....The whole deal of fear and respect are literal terms, nothing that identifies the level of frumness.
I'm glad I don't need to implement ridiculous forms of "respect" and "fear" with my kids. My mother didn't do that with us and we love and respect her.
I don't need to fear her.
And if I ever fear my husband, I would ask for a divorce.
Add that to reasons why I am "not frum"
Don't laugh saw, I feared my mother like a nightmare and I loved my father with all my heart. And we're frum....The whole deal of fear and respect are literal terms, nothing that identifies the level of frumness.
Oh read back. Apparently I'm not frum because my husband doesn't own my earnings (we share equally), my husband wears a wedding band and I don't fear my mother.
Actually, the scenarios described here by posters really has me stupefied. I've been in households across the gamut (LWMO to super charedi) and I've never seen this rigid structure with regard to serving food!
Saw, what scares me even more, is this entire thread. Somehow people refuse to look out of their cubicles and firmly believe that their way is the true torah way.Whether it is camp, being a SAHM, leaving teens unattended, having male dominance in the gouse, whichever topic you cover. To those posters, life doesn't change in a hundred years, and regardless in which country we live.
Ironically, I, a sheltered chassidishe veibele, have an easier time accepting Jewish variety in observance and across the world, than many "open minded, secular exposed" posters do.
The men in your family do most of the diaper changing when they are home? Or at least half of it?
I'm very impressed. I know families where they think it's not appropriate to ask a talmid chacham to change his son's diaper. Maybe only as a last resort, if the mother is out and there are no older sisters about. You know, kavod laTorah and all that.
I don't. How would a diaper be so different from a bag of trash? Plenty of talmidei chachamim take out the trash.
Ill tell you that I know of at least one man who learns in kollel (I will not say a talmid chacham because he has many derech eretz issues) that on principal will NEVER change a diaper, only until the belly button part falls off. Then nothing. And it is principal with him. I have no idea about the trash, but to him diapers are just below him. Terrible. Who died and made that "talmid chacham" god? Or above changing his baby's diaper?
The men in your family do most of the diaper changing when they are home? Or at least half of it?
I'm very impressed. I know families where they think it's not appropriate to ask a talmid chacham to change his son's diaper. Maybe only as a last resort, if the mother is out and there are no older sisters about. You know, kavod laTorah and all that.
I don't. How would a diaper be so different from a bag of trash? Plenty of talmidei chachamim take out the trash.
Ill tell you that I know of at least one man who learns in kollel (I will not say a talmid chacham because he has many derech eretz issues) that on principal will NEVER change a diaper, only until the belly button part falls off. Then nothing. And it is principal with him. I have no idea about the trash, but to him diapers are just below him. Terrible. Who died and made that "talmid chacham" god? Or above changing his baby's diaper?
He is not a talmid chacham, you said so yourself I know lots of people with issues, both religious and not. I agree that it's extremely disturbing when people distort religion to suit their own idiosyncrasies, which are often contrary to Torah.
Shabbat, I don't know where you stand on the kollel thing in general, but I thought I might surprise you by saying that I am not a fan of the kollel movement that has taken over today. Just throwing that into the mix.
Serving men first or boys first. Definitely. I remember being taught by my mother to serve the men first unless they were frei in which case you served the women first. Lesson in table ettiquite yet in the 60s in America. I remember having big rabbonim at my parent's table for various occasions from all over the world, and many of them would - when being served first - turn to their wives to serve HER first, but they as rabbonim were given first honor.
What do you do with a five year old boy and an 18 year old girl? Of course you serve the girl first. But when it's an 18 year old boy and a 20 year old girl, it really depended on how frum they were. The frummer they were, the boy got first. Always. The more "modern" they were, then "ladies first" made inroads.
WOW, that is really all I can say. Im my life I never heard of anything so sad. You serve people at your table based on religiosity? Thats really terrible and demeaning.
that's not how I read it...I think she meant that the more secular a person is, the mentality is "ladies first" as opposed to a more right wing approach is "serve the men first"
I can see how you are reading it negatively, though.
Personally, I don't make a blanket "men first", either. If there is a mix of old and young, I would sooner do old vs young than men vs women... (ie my grandmother before my uncle...)
This serving thing has been racking my brain all night (I was dreaming about it) I have been thinking about all of the homes that I have eve been in for shabbat and my parent's home and I never saw serving, at all. The dishes were always brought to the table and the person closest to the kitchen was given the dish to place on the table or take first. Simple as that. Does nobody else do it that way? Right now at home, there is me, hubby and child. We both bring in the dishes and so whomever sits down first will take from the dish that is closest to their seat and then pass it, but it was done the same way while I was growing up. Nobody else?
Shabbat, I don't know where you stand on the kollel thing in general, but I thought I might surprise you by saying that I am not a fan of the kollel movement that has taken over today. Just throwing that into the mix.
I am with you on this. But that is for a whole other thread
The men in your family do most of the diaper changing when they are home? Or at least half of it?
I'm very impressed. I know families where they think it's not appropriate to ask a talmid chacham to change his son's diaper. Maybe only as a last resort, if the mother is out and there are no older sisters about. You know, kavod laTorah and all that.
I don't. How would a diaper be so different from a bag of trash? Plenty of talmidei chachamim take out the trash.
Ill tell you that I know of at least one man who learns in kollel (I will not say a talmid chacham because he has many derech eretz issues) that on principal will NEVER change a diaper, only until the belly button part falls off. Then nothing. And it is principal with him. I have no idea about the trash, but to him diapers are just below him. Terrible. Who died and made that "talmid chacham" god? Or above changing his baby's diaper?
He is not a talmid chacham, you said so yourself I know lots of people with issues, both religious and not. I agree that it's extremely disturbing when people distort religion to suit their own idiosyncrasies, which are often contrary to Torah.
Tov, so he is not a talmid chacham but he does learn for most of the day. Where oh where did his derech eretz get lost in his daily studies? I really wonder.
The men in your family do most of the diaper changing when they are home? Or at least half of it?
I'm very impressed. I know families where they think it's not appropriate to ask a talmid chacham to change his son's diaper. Maybe only as a last resort, if the mother is out and there are no older sisters about. You know, kavod laTorah and all that.
I don't. How would a diaper be so different from a bag of trash? Plenty of talmidei chachamim take out the trash.
Ill tell you that I know of at least one man who learns in kollel (I will not say a talmid chacham because he has many derech eretz issues) that on principal will NEVER change a diaper, only until the belly button part falls off. Then nothing. And it is principal with him. I have no idea about the trash, but to him diapers are just below him. Terrible. Who died and made that "talmid chacham" god? Or above changing his baby's diaper?
He is not a talmid chacham, you said so yourself I know lots of people with issues, both religious and not. I agree that it's extremely disturbing when people distort religion to suit their own idiosyncrasies, which are often contrary to Torah.
Tov, so he is not a talmid chacham but he does learn for most of the day. Where oh where did his derech eretz get lost in his daily studies? I really wonder.
Do you really wonder? I have met more than my share of those. Just because someone sits in yeshiva all day, doesn't mean his rotten core will be fixed. The right education at home, the right education in school, and lots of prayers for a person to turn out well.
To be fair, I have also met more than my share of bitter anti-religious who refuse to see what others might appreciate in a Torah lifestyle, even if it doesn't mean taking on that lifestyle for themselves. These people think they are enlightened, but their values are so corrupt I wonder how they even fool themselves.
I know lots of people with issues, both religious and not. I agree that it's extremely disturbing when people distort religion to suit their own idiosyncrasies, which are often contrary to Torah.
I have met more than my share of those. Just because someone sits in yeshiva all day, doesn't mean his rotten core will be fixed. The right education at home, the right education in school, and lots of prayers for a person to turn out well.
