America. I remember having big rabbonim at my parent's table for various occasions from all over the world, and many of them would - when being served first - turn to their wives to serve HER first, but they as rabbonim were given first honor.
I recall MaBelleVie saying or implying that one couldn't be mochel to Kvod HaTorah, which means a talmid chacham can't ask his wife or older sister be served first. Maybe later I'll look up the quote.
freidasima wrote:
If you had both boys and girls then girls did the domestic, but boys did the heavy stuff.
If the family had a 16 year old girl and an 18 year old boy and there was enough money for one set of new clothing of course the girl got it and the boy wore his old stuff. Girls had to be dressed well for shidduchim, girls were given privileges the boys couldn't dream of in terms of physical things. Girls didn't do heavy or dirty work if there were boys. As someone wrote, the boys did the garbage, moved furniture, did the heavy work and the heavy cleaning because it wasn't healthy for the girls to do it. And if the boys were learning then on Friday or when they got home. Because girls were treated delicately. Anything disgusting like getting rid of a dead bird or dead mouse? Boys of course did it. Girls were treated to many more presents than the boys, their physical conditions were always better as they were considered delicate.
The super-conservative charedi families that I know today are not like that. Yes, girls get first dibs on clothing and comfy beds. But they also do all or at least most of the dirty work at home. Definitely including garbage and jukim (coakroaches) and mice.
Even looking at the yeshiva bachurim and comparing them to their sisters....the BOYS look a lot more delicate than their sisters, a lot less suited to throwing out the garbage or killing cockroaches.
And anyhow, they are rarely home. Did the girls in the families you know wait till nightfall to throw out the stinky garbage or kill a roach?
I bought a random Rosemond book when I saw I liked some of his ideas on the threads. I read it all and felt soooo much better. I finally had practical ideas for things I was trying to solve, practical and fitting my family culture (no "natural" or "logical" consequences, couple first, etc). I remember thinking I could never do some of the things he states, and every time we used his methods we had to do it "lite". Keep the idea, keep the concept, but not so harsh. Basically like I feel about old school "grandmother" discipline, and "charedi family" discipline.
I don't remember the first problem we solved.
The second one started a few days after I got a second book from him. I was worried about it, and suddenly I saw exactly our case in the book! We did that, it worked in two days. DD is also much better now, calmer and all, more regulated, sleeps better...
My father and my husband have exclusive rights on taking out the trash. They do it after a full day of learning. We take it out at the end of the day, generally, not in the morning. If you do this daily, no reason it should be that stinky that you can't wait until night.
ETA They also do all the heavy lifting, moving of furniture, and shlepping of suitcases. Yeah, I'm super jealous.
Ruchel you keep bringing family examples of all over where this didn't exist. By the same account I can bring family examples from all over where it DID exist. Galicia. Bukovina. Ukraine. Germany. I have distant relatives from Switzerland who were the same. So what does it teach us? That there were families who did and those who didn't.
That's what I said all along, while people claimed everyone frum/charedi does it unless they are assimilated or have no roots.
There are also things people did because everyone did, and it wasn't a minhag, just what was normal around. This can and does change.
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But leaving Europe, I'm sure many of you are familiar with the sefaradi custom of kissing a father's hand.
I mentioned rabbinical Sefardim NOT doing all that. So again, some do, some don't.
And not sure why Spain/Portugal/Italy/Greece/Netherlands/Hamburg/Balkans/Romania/South France... means leaving Europe. I'm sure you know what SefardI means, too. That's again a stereotype, some are in Europe, some aren't, and many Sefardim are not at all at all Sefardic... just like I tell my North African friends, not all Ashkenazim are Chabad, not all Ashkenazim wait 3 hours, not all Ashkenazim are from NY.
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I remember being taught by my mother to serve the men first unless they were frei in which case you served the women first.
It makes sense. But doing it? I could never. It's not for me to determine someone's worth.
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Meals are public.
I don't relate. My house is halachically not public, I can even go with my hair uncovered in front of 50 rabbanim there if I feel like it (yes, our halacha). Home is a safe haven, not where we put on shows for the public eye bh!
My father and my husband have exclusive rights on taking out the trash. They do it after a full day of learning. We take it out at the end of the day, generally, not in the morning. If you do this daily, no reason it should be that stinky that you can't wait until night.
ETA They also do all the heavy lifting, moving of furniture, and shlepping of suitcases. Yeah, I'm super jealous.
OK. We take out the trash several times throughout the day - I just can't stand a full bag of garbage sitting in my house. But I know not everyone does.
I was just saying that this chivalrous men-do-the-tough-and-dirty-tasks doesn't hold true for all conservatively frum families, and that practically, women are the ones who are home a lot more, so probably a great deal of the tough and dirty stuff falls on them.
In the shita that MaBelle Vie and I are talking about men, even those who learn, are home for breakfast and dinner and then they take out the trash even if they go back to yeshiva afterwards. It's very common here in EY where the kollel men come home for lunch as well often.
But even NOT kollel men, only those who are kovei itim like my father who did not make his parnossoh from kodesh on purpose although he could have, and my husband who deals with the administrative side of chinuch today, they are lamdanim, they get kovod hatorah but they also always did the ughy things.
Ruchel I don't know how frum your family was, how assimilated they were, I can't say I don't know them. But from the stories you have told, they don't exactly sound typical in general...so I don't know that you can learn about what whole communities did from them. I really don't know. I DO know that entire communities had various norms before the first world war, and your grandparents aren't talking about that, I doubt that they were alive then, but my father certainly was, and my grandmother by far born in the 19th century. And from them I know about entire shtetls and what was considered normal including in kibbud av. And not just from them but we were zocheh at least in my grandmother's case that many of them came to America before WWI like she did and I knew them and heard from them the same traditions of kibbud av that I heard from her. So it certainly wasn't just her family but whole shtetls who acted like that.
And you can talk yourself blue in the face reminding me that sefaradim can be european, I know that of course, but when you live here in EY where the majority of sefaradim who identify as such are from north africa, the middle east and asia, outnumbering the European Sefaradim by thousands of percents simply because they WERENT killed during the Holocaust while so many European sefaradim (think Greece, Holland, Italy) WERE killed. so they are my frame of reference. I talk of the others as Greeks, Italians, etc. but when I say Sefaradi I mean the millions of others.
And yes, till today you can still see how they all come to kiss Rav Ovadia's hand and those of all their rabbinic leaders and I have seen dozens if not more such families where the father's hand is STILL kissed and certainly the grandfather in frum families - heck even in plain ordinary mesorati families among the....whatever you want to call them, mizrahiim or whatever.
I take out the trash when needed. I need a little bag for it, so it can go in the trash dump in the corridor on our floor (yup, our building is old fashioned like that! and we almost bought an apartment with the trash dump in the kitchen! even more old school!).
If there is no small bag, it waits until DH is home because huge bag = heavy and also = shlepping it (BH for elevators) to the basement.
But wait, now's the funny thing.
When dh was working FT, we were doing like this, and gradually he stopped buying the small bags (I can't buy them alone as I don't drive and they aren't found around). So I could do it less and less and gave up. I just asked him why he stopped bringing these small bags, he told me he felt bad I had to go several times a day (small bag, remember). Big deal!! It's in the corridor!! 5 meters from the door!!
I've seen the hand kiss - but that doesn't mean they get up every time the father enters the room. It's just an initial greeting. Also, it is a greeting between men, has nothing to do with male/female hierarchy. I haven't seen sephardi families where the mother gets up when the father enters.
In the US, most people have big trash cans with a lid, and large bags (typically 13 gallon size) lining them. I would love to have the trash removed more frequently, but the bags are not cheap, so we fill up. And for the most part, I do prefer to have a large bin, especially erev and motzaei Shabbat, when it easily fills up fast.
Honestly, our housekeeper takes it out if it its full before my husband gets home. But on weekends, when it goes out more frequently, its all on him.
FS, you don't know how frum the grandparents of my grandparents were? Well, one was a chief rabbi and would have been Israeli Sefardic chief rabbi if not for the war. Others were chassidim (shaved head type). Etc. Pretty decent I think.
It is funny that ALL of them would be non typical. It's not like they were all in one single weird place, they were all over, and if you add DH's family, you get other people, places and edot again. All non typical? Maybe those you depict are.
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And you can talk yourself blue in the face reminding me that sefaradim can be european, I know that of course, but when you live here in EY where the majority of sefaradim who identify as such are from north africa, the middle east and asia, outnumbering the European Sefaradim by thousands of percents simply because they WERENT killed during the Holocaust while so many European sefaradim (think Greece, Holland, Italy) WERE killed. so they are my frame of reference. I talk of the others as Greeks, Italians, etc. but when I say Sefaradi I mean the millions of others.
Ok, so by all means you are Chabad and you wait 3 hours. Or maybe non frum, because most Ashkenazim are not frum, and those who are, are sooo outnumbered.
If anything, Greek and Italian Jews are yet again another minhag. Those who are Sefardic there do not refer to themselves as such.
they are lamdanim, they get kovod hatorah but they also always did the ughy things.
Yes, like change dirty diapers all day long, clean vomit, change sheets that were peed on, clean the toilets. All disgusting things that women do five times a day.
The fact that some men take upon themselves to throw out the garbage really is just symbolic, usually women are still left with the bulk of the gross jobs.
they are lamdanim, they get kovod hatorah but they also always did the ughy things.
Yes, like change dirty diapers all day long, clean vomit, change sheets that were peed on, clean the toilets. All disgusting things that women do five times a day.
The fact that some men take upon themselves to throw out the garbage really is just symbolic, usually women are still left with the bulk of the gross jobs.
What's your point exactly? Btw, my husband has done all of the above.
they are lamdanim, they get kovod hatorah but they also always did the ughy things.
Yes, like change dirty diapers all day long, clean vomit, change sheets that were peed on, clean the toilets. All disgusting things that women do five times a day.
The fact that some men take upon themselves to throw out the garbage really is just symbolic, usually women are still left with the bulk of the gross jobs.
What's your point exactly? Btw, my husband has done all of the above.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but I got the impression from FS that in truly frum, conservative, upstanding families of the past and present, women were seen as more delicate, and were pampered more. So even if boys got more respect and were served first, there was also a chivalrous element where they took care of all the 'ughy things'.
I was just reminding FS that traditionally women have taken care of 95% of the 'ughy things' and throwing out the garbage or killing a cockroach that happens to show up after kollel hours really doesn't compare.
they are lamdanim, they get kovod hatorah but they also always did the ughy things.
Yes, like change dirty diapers all day long, clean vomit, change sheets that were peed on, clean the toilets. All disgusting things that women do five times a day.
The fact that some men take upon themselves to throw out the garbage really is just symbolic, usually women are still left with the bulk of the gross jobs.
What's your point exactly? Btw, my husband has done all of the above.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but I got the impression from FS that in truly frum, conservative, upstanding families of the past and present, women were seen as more delicate, and were pampered more. So even if boys got more respect and were served first, there was also a chivalrous element where they took care of all the 'ughy things'.
I was just reminding FS that traditionally women have taken care of 95% of the 'ughy things' and throwing out the garbage or killing a cockroach that happens to show up after kollel hours really doesn't compare.
As I mentioned, in my family the men do the heavy work. Suitcases, furniture, construction, lifting heavy items. Whatever. They also change diapers, strip sheets, wipe puddles of vomit, evacuate bugs and plunge toilets when they're home. When they aren't, whether in shul, in yeshiva or at work, we all manage.
The men in your family do most of the diaper changing when they are home? Or at least half of it?
I'm very impressed. I know families where they think it's not appropriate to ask a talmid chacham to change his son's diaper. Maybe only as a last resort, if the mother is out and there are no older sisters about. You know, kavod laTorah and all that.
The men in your family do most of the diaper changing when they are home? Or at least half of it?
I'm very impressed. I know families where they think it's not appropriate to ask a talmid chacham to change his son's diaper. Maybe only as a last resort, if the mother is out and there are no older sisters about. You know, kavod laTorah and all that.
I don't. How would a diaper be so different from a bag of trash? Plenty of talmidei chachamim take out the trash.
Wow so many questions and all I did was have supper with dh.
Ok first to yirah. How is it expressed in our house? Or rather how did we (not that successfully) try to have it expressed? By the kids not being overly familiar with me when they talked. That's a problem because they tended, naturally, as much or as little as I was around, to be more likely to say things or argue points with me that they wouldn't have DARED with their father. He was the one to always say to them, if he heard them refer to me as "she" when speaking, "SHE has a name, she is your mother, always refer to her as that".
I never called my mother SHE to this day like "she said" but rather "mother said". My kids today are the same. That was drummed into them as "yirah".
That still doesn't quite answer the question, which was how is yirah expressed MORE for you, since as a mother you are first in the pasuk. I assume your kids don't get overly familiar with your dh either, nor do they call him 'he'. So the question remains: how is yirah for Ima shown and prioritized over yirah for Abba, just as kibbud for Abba is prioritized over kibbud for Ima in your books, because the av is mentioned first in the pasuk.
Self serve is self-serve in our family. If I bring a plate of fruit out for desert, no, my kids do not ask their father if he wants a piece first. Rather, my dh might urge the kids to take one. Or he might encourage the guests to take, regardless of whether they are male/female.
I've actually never been to a home where a bowl of something is brought to the table - say, fruit, or a plate of cookies - and the kids tell the father to take first.
Hierarchy is not an empty word. If there is a hierarchy, it means something or someone is worth more/more important/has more rights. Do men, fathers and sons, have more halachic worth than women, mothers and daughters? I'm sure there are more learned women here who can answer that.
You don't teach your children that their father is more important than them??
Leaving aside the husband/wife hierarchy, what happened to kibbud av v'eim? You don't think your children should wait for their father to take first?
Interesting. In my home growing up, my father always took last, in everything. He made sure that everyone else got first. That was the way that we could do kibud av. He wanted us to take first. I dont think I ever remember him getting first. And to me that is showing me that he is more important than me because I am listening to what he wants done, not him going first.
Also in kibbud av va'em is there a hierarchy in your house? How do you express the fact that the torah put father before mother in the posuk. After all we believe that there is meaning to each and every word in the posuk in torah and in its place in the sentence. So...as chazal interpret it saying that father comes before mother in kibbud how is that carried out in your house.
Freidasima, I've been reading your posts with great interest and would appreciate if you could answer this question: given that the torah says "ish imo v'aviv tira'u", putting the mother first, how do you express that/ carry that out in your house?
That's a really good question.
Thanks Tablepoetry. I'm very much looking forward to seeing Freidasima's reply to this.
